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The Berg HD212 Thread!!

#121
JGR said:
Can anyone comment on the top end of the 12s by themselves with the tweet off? Are they similar to, say the NV412 which is spec'd to the 4.5K range?
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GUESSING, that the tweets are crossed over at 3-3.5 khz, the 12's probably don't get much past 1.5khz before they start to slowly roll off. Just a guess I'm pulling out of my you know what.
 
#122
it is front ported, (upper left & lower right hand corners are ports..

ugh.....I gotta find even a cheap cover...gonna be so paranoid...

KJung said:
I have not seen the HD212 handles, but I understand that is the case. The AE212 is a bit strange when carrying it, due to the placement of the handles. I assume Jim got that feeback and adjusted the design. I think the HD212 is also front ported. I just meant that I believe the box dimensions are the same (I think!).
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#123
joconnorwi said:
it is front ported, (upper left & lower right hand corners are ports..

ugh.....I gotta find even a cheap cover...gonna be so paranoid...
Click to expand...

Jims high quality covers that fit perfectly will protect your $1000 investment for a 1/10th of what you paid for it. If you decide to sell it, you'll get more $$ back if it's in primo shape.

Just my .02
 
#126
Doug Parent said:
GUESSING, that the tweets are crossed over at 3-3.5 khz, the 12's probably don't get much past 1.5khz before they start to slowly roll off. Just a guess I'm pulling out of my you know what.
Click to expand...

I was thinking they are probably good to the 4K range like the HT112NT.
 
#127
JGR said:
I was thinking they are probably good to the 4K range like the HT112NT.
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The issue being asked about is what impact does the crossover have. In other words, I am pretty sure Jim is not using a simple hi pass filter on the tweeter, and hence when you turn down the attenuator, the drivers will most likely not extend as high as they would if the box was a one way box (like the NT design).


I have no idea, since this all gets quite complex. However, my guess is the top end of the HD212 would sound quite different from the same box produced as a one way box (i.e., not as much extension into the upper midrange).
 
#129
KJung said:
The issue being asked about is what impact does the crossover have. In other words, I am pretty sure Jim is not using a simple hi pass filter on the tweeter, and hence when you turn down the attenuator, the drivers will most likely not extend as high as they would if the box was a one way box (like the NT design).


I have no idea, since this all gets quite complex. However, my guess is the top end of the HD212 would sound quite different from the same box produced as a one way box (i.e., not as much extension into the upper midrange).
Click to expand...

I've been meaning to ask Jim. I can tell you for certain that the 15's in the NV215 are running full range with the crossover/pad only affecting the 6, so I'm interested to know if the woofers in these cabs are low passed or not. I know that is a technically "better" approach, but for someone like me that hates tweeters, it would be nice to be able to turn it off and not loose the natural top end of the 12's.
 
#130
JGR said:
I've been meaning to ask Jim. I can tell you for certain that the 15's in the NV215 are running full range with the crossover/pad only affecting the 6, so I'm interested to know if the woofers in these cabs are low passed or not. I know that is a technically "better" approach, but for someone like me that hates tweeters, it would be nice to be able to turn it off and not loose the natural top end of the 12's.
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+1 That would be the question. Not sure how a crossover really works, but many will soften the top end of the driver, and allow for an even transition to the tweeter. The AE212 is a prime example of this.
 
#131
Doug Parent said:
3.5 khz seems to be the peak on a stock 2512II graph, I doubt whatever Jim is using goes much higher. Still, thats probably adequate for most people who don't demand a tweeter.
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Yup, agreed so long as the crossover doesn't lop off the upper extension.
 
#132
JGR said:
Yup, agreed so long as the crossover doesn't lop off the upper extension.
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you can count on it. my guess is a slow roll off (maybe a 1st order filter) starting around 1khz. Jim does detailed work with crossover parameters. Only way to get the full extension of whatever woofer you are using it to bypass the crossover all together, but it's going to create sonic clutter in the crossover region when you fade the tweeter back into the mix.

I'm going to do some more experimentation on this topic in the near future, I'll post what I come up with.
 
#134
Doug Parent said:
The AE410 is an even better example IMHO because the 10's are allowed to extend closer to the seam.
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I was coming at it from the opposite direction.

The AE212 is a good example of a cab that would not work very well with the tweeter dialed down.

The AE410 actually sounds quite good with the tweeter dialed down to almost off, since the drivers (to your point) are allowed to work all the way up into the upper mids.
 
#136
joconnorwi said:
Yes! Dual 1/4 inch and dual speakon
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Thanks joc.

Does anyone on here know how Jim rates his cabs, power-handling-wise? Is it the thermal limit like most other cab manufacturers? What I am really trying to determine is, can the HD212, which is rated at 700 watts, really handle that amount of power before its excursion limits are exceeded?

As we all know, most cabs cannot actually handle its rated power because that figure is based on its thermal limit, not its mechanical limit. Most cabs (generally speaking) can only handle about half its rated [thermal] power due to overexcursion of the drivers (its mechanical limit). I was wondering if Jim's HD cabs (with the 12" drivers) can handle a bit more than the usual due to the woofers having longer excursion capability.
 
#137
SactoBass said:
Thanks joc.

Does anyone on here know how Jim rates his cabs, power-handling-wise? Is it the thermal limit like most other cab manufacturers? What I am really trying to determine is, can the HD212, which is rated at 700 watts, really handle that amount of power before its excursion limits are exceeded?

As we all know, most cabs cannot actually handle its rated power because that figure is based on its thermal limit, not its mechanical limit. Most cabs (generally speaking) can only handle about half its rated [thermal] power due to overexcursion of the drivers (its mechanical limit). I was wondering if Jim's HD cabs (with the 12" drivers) can handle a bit more than the usual due to the woofers having longer excursion capability.
Click to expand...

I have owned a gob of Berg cabs, and they always seem to perform beyond my expectations. The GREAT news about Jim's cabs is that they don't NEED a ton of power. He has always done a great job of getting a real, useable low end that sounds big out of his cabs, but the cabs still crank with moderate power. For example, my AE212 and AE410 SING with the typical 500 watts at 4ohms.

I've also found that the HT 12" drivers (the same driver is in the new HD112) are the 'king of the hill' for being able to handle a big gob of power, and to stay defined an open at high volumes. I include his HT112ER in my definition of a 'super 12' (i.e., in the same company of the amazing cabs built around variations of the 3012LF neo driver).

Great stuff... no worries!.
 
#138
KJung said:
I have owned a gob of Berg cabs, and they always seem to perform beyond my expectations. The GREAT news about Jim's cabs is that they don't NEED a ton of power. He has always done a great job of getting a real, useable low end that sounds big out of his cabs, but the cabs still crank with moderate power. For example, my AE212 and AE410 SING with the typical 500 watts at 4ohms.

I've also found that the HT 12" drivers (the same driver is in the new HD112) are the 'king of the hill' for being able to handle a big gob of power, and to stay defined an open at high volumes. I include his HT112ER in my definition of a 'super 12' (i.e., in the same company of the amazing cabs built around variations of the 3012LF neo driver).

Great stuff... no worries!.
Click to expand...

Regarding the ceramics Jim uses, I suspect they are based on the Pro series Kappa drivers, Kappa Pro 12A is rated at 500. If it's a Delta, they are 400 each. The driver in the old HT115 was based on the Kappa, per Jim, which is a 600 watt driver and Jim rated the cab at 400, so he's probably leaning on the conservative side in general.

For a while I used the the older HT210 and HT115 stack and hit it with 1400 watts, no problemo.

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#139
Doug Parent said:
Regarding the ceramics Jim uses, I suspect they are based on the Pro series Kappa drivers, Kappa Pro 12A is rated at 500. If it's a Delta, they are 400 each. The driver in the old HT115 was based on the Kappa, per Jim, which is a 600 watt driver and Jim rated the cab at 400, so he's probably leaning on the conservative side in general.

For a while I used the the older HT210 and HT115 stack and hit it with 1400 watts, no problemo.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Click to expand...

+1 VERY impressive drivers in Jim's ceramic cabs! And, sounds like he is taking mechanical limits into account on his power ratings, which is not surprising given Jim's background and the overall excellence of his design. There are quite a few of his cabs that don't match up to my voicing goals, but there hasn't been one that hasn't been impressive in its own way IMO.
 

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