THE Boutique Bass Cab Shootout

[12bass]

From what I gather, Duke has fine-tuned the crossover in the TC to make it sound "musical", perhaps removing some of the nasty peaks here and there. Whilst the T3W fEARful and F11x cabinets are somewhat related, the crossovers are totally different. Steve Clift aimed for a smooth, flat, phase coherent, response; however, the F11x design seems to have a bit more aggressive character, perhaps not as flat throughout the range, plus it doesn't go quite as deep in the fundamentals. Definitely curious to know what you think about the T3W.

 

[nutdog]

My favorite of the group: the TC112.

It was either a cut above, or equal to the rest in every category: power to weight, dispersion, form factor and accuracy.

And cost, but the real bargain is the Hathor 1203 at $650. Two for about the price of an f112. Everything I wanted in a cab and some things I didn’t know I wanted.

I’ve had the F115, tc115af, tc212, bergs, some others...all marvelous in their own right but the 1203 is sweet spot special. Let us know how you like the changeling. I prefer the 3in mid over the horn but some don’t.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

... undeniably the flattest sounding of the bunch...

Thank you very much. "Flat sounding" is good in some contexts and not in others.

... tilt back design...

The tiltback kickstand on that Thunderchild 112 is a custom thing, not normally part of the cab, 'cause it's a PITA to do.

... the flattest sounding of the bunch...

Imo the Changeling isn't going to compete with the Thunderchild for accuracy; its goal posts were in a different place.

 

[Jonny5bass]

It's really quick remarkable how far technology and design have both come in the last 10 years: a decade ago I was bringing two 410's and SVT Pro to gigs and STILL lacking volume and clarity.

Turns out... cabs rated for 1600 watts at 8ohms might not be very loud at all. Who knew?

The standards for both efficiency and power to weight ratio have all gone up in a pretty shocking way; even considering gigging with a rock band, and only a single 12" cab with no FOH support, would have been totally laughable back then.

Yet...that's exactly what I did this last weekend, and the cab had gobs of headroom left.



Aside from that wonderful revelation, perhaps the most surprising thing to be in this whole shootout was how (despite some serious differences in both appearance and specs) the real world sensitivity differences between the cabs were much smaller than you would expect; obviously the F115 was the loudest and had the most bottom end, but it certainly wasn't even remotely close to twice as loud as the BB2 or TC despite what the eye test would suggest.

With that said, on to the cabs individually...

My favorite of the group: the TC112.

It was either a cut above, or equal to the rest in every category: power to weight, dispersion, form factor and accuracy.

It was undeniably the flattest sounding of the bunch, and the rear-firing tweeter gave the sound an extra dimensionality that was really pleasing: almost 3D.

Dispersion is excellent, and the tilt back design, dip switches and pluggable rear ports meant the most ability to fine tune your sound based on the stage out of any of the cabs by a pretty wide margin; not quite as loud (or as much sub low end) as the BB2, but still plenty as a standalone cab for all but the most demanding jobs, and I found the bottom end to be more controlled than the BB2 in a way that would be practical for most genres.

The real "downside" to this design is you can't sit a normal width amp on top of it in a way that doesn't look...well, odd.

Given that I'd likely be regularly using the tilt-back design for monitoring accuracy though I don't see this as an issue for myself personally.

@DukeLeJeune is also sending me a Changeling cab this week, and as much as a loved the TC I think it may be what I end up with.

I'll move to the BB2 now since there is a clip of it above.

This was also one of my favorites of the group: the amount of sound that tiny box is capable of putting out is truly shocking, and had this been the only cab I'd tested I would gig it happily.

I found the tweeter to still handle dirt signals well, much better than other designs and never harsh regardless of the setting, though the dispersion wasn't quite as good as the TC nor the crossover as smooth: the cab will also get VERY dark if you roll the tweeter all the way off, which can actually make this cab the most versatile for some players.

I'd love to see them add a tilt back feature to the design, as that was it's only obvious shortcoming on tight stages.

The F115 next, simply because I mentioned it already.

Clearly the biggest of the bunch in many ways on paper (size and weight) as well as in person (bottom end and max volume).

However, it wasn't nearly as uncolored as I expected: though very flat through about 1k there was a noticeable dip in the upper mids as well as a spike in the presence region, and the top end was very "hyped" to the extent that the cab was considerably brighter with the tweeter completely off than any of the other cabs were with their tweeter completely maxed.

In speaking to the owner of a T3W 12/6/1, who's cab I hope to still eventually borrow, he mentioned that even the same designs in the Fearful/Fearless lines can vary dramatically in their sonic properties due to the variances in the build and builders themselves (construction materials, dampening materials/quantity, speaker choice, etc.).

I also had the chance to AB the F115 with Skip's F112 at NAMM, and though the listening environment wasn't ideal could tell I much preferred the response of the F112.

Anyone in LA have an F112 I can borrow for a week?

Finally, the Genzler cabs.

The array design is very clever: the dispersion is excellent and overall I think I prefer a good paper cone design for both clarity and smoothness in the top end.

I preferred the 112 to the 210 for a few reasons: the bottom end was tighter, the dispersion seemed overall a bit better and it was a bit easier of a single hand carry.

The 210 was a bit of a nonstarter for me due to form factor alone, and I'd love to see Jeff redesign the 210 to be used vertically: the wide/short design really seemed to require either a stand or a second cab to actually aim the midrange anywhere near your ears unless you're on a large enough stage (and in which case you'd likely need two anyway for volume reasons), and obviously tilting the cab on it's side would completely ruin the horizontal dispersion.

I'd love to try out one of the new angled 3-12 array cabs to see if it could more closely hang with the TC on small stages.

The End.

Hope those insights either prove helpful, inspire a fresh round of GAS, or both...I'll update again once I get ears on the Changeling, and if I end up getting to play with the 12/6/1 or any other cab that I'm curious about trying (F112, MAS, RevSound, etc.)

Big thanks to everyone involved for the generous loaners and making this comparison testing possible.

Thanks for putting the time and energy into the shootout!

 

[monsterthompson]

It's really quick remarkable how far technology and design have both come in the last 10 years: a decade ago I was bringing two 410's and SVT Pro to gigs and STILL lacking volume and clarity.

Turns out... cabs rated for 1600 watts at 8ohms might not be very loud at all. Who knew?

The standards for both efficiency and power to weight ratio have all gone up in a pretty shocking way; even considering gigging with a rock band, and only a single 12" cab with no FOH support, would have been totally laughable back then.

Yet...that's exactly what I did this last weekend, and the cab had gobs of headroom left.



Aside from that wonderful revelation, perhaps the most surprising thing to be in this whole shootout was how (despite some serious differences in both appearance and specs) the real world sensitivity differences between the cabs were much smaller than you would expect; obviously the F115 was the loudest and had the most bottom end, but it certainly wasn't even remotely close to twice as loud as the BB2 or TC despite what the eye test would suggest.

With that said, on to the cabs individually...

My favorite of the group: the TC112.

It was either a cut above, or equal to the rest in every category: power to weight, dispersion, form factor and accuracy.

It was undeniably the flattest sounding of the bunch, and the rear-firing tweeter gave the sound an extra dimensionality that was really pleasing: almost 3D.

Dispersion is excellent, and the tilt back design, dip switches and pluggable rear ports meant the most ability to fine tune your sound based on the stage out of any of the cabs by a pretty wide margin; not quite as loud (or as much sub low end) as the BB2, but still plenty as a standalone cab for all but the most demanding jobs, and I found the bottom end to be more controlled than the BB2 in a way that would be practical for most genres.

The real "downside" to this design is you can't sit a normal width amp on top of it in a way that doesn't look...well, odd.

Given that I'd likely be regularly using the tilt-back design for monitoring accuracy though I don't see this as an issue for myself personally.

@DukeLeJeune is also sending me a Changeling cab this week, and as much as a loved the TC I think it may be what I end up with.

I'll move to the BB2 now since there is a clip of it above.

This was also one of my favorites of the group: the amount of sound that tiny box is capable of putting out is truly shocking, and had this been the only cab I'd tested I would gig it happily.

I found the tweeter to still handle dirt signals well, much better than other designs and never harsh regardless of the setting, though the dispersion wasn't quite as good as the TC nor the crossover as smooth: the cab will also get VERY dark if you roll the tweeter all the way off, which can actually make this cab the most versatile for some players.

I'd love to see them add a tilt back feature to the design, as that was it's only obvious shortcoming on tight stages.

The F115 next, simply because I mentioned it already.

Clearly the biggest of the bunch in many ways on paper (size and weight) as well as in person (bottom end and max volume).

However, it wasn't nearly as uncolored as I expected: though very flat through about 1k there was a noticeable dip in the upper mids as well as a spike in the presence region, and the top end was very "hyped" to the extent that the cab was considerably brighter with the tweeter completely off than any of the other cabs were with their tweeter completely maxed.

In speaking to the owner of a T3W 12/6/1, who's cab I hope to still eventually borrow, he mentioned that even the same designs in the Fearful/Fearless lines can vary dramatically in their sonic properties due to the variances in the build and builders themselves (construction materials, dampening materials/quantity, speaker choice, etc.).

I also had the chance to AB the F115 with Skip's F112 at NAMM, and though the listening environment wasn't ideal could tell I much preferred the response of the F112.

Anyone in LA have an F112 I can borrow for a week?

Finally, the Genzler cabs.

The array design is very clever: the dispersion is excellent and overall I think I prefer a good paper cone design for both clarity and smoothness in the top end.

I preferred the 112 to the 210 for a few reasons: the bottom end was tighter, the dispersion seemed overall a bit better and it was a bit easier of a single hand carry.

The 210 was a bit of a nonstarter for me due to form factor alone, and I'd love to see Jeff redesign the 210 to be used vertically: the wide/short design really seemed to require either a stand or a second cab to actually aim the midrange anywhere near your ears unless you're on a large enough stage (and in which case you'd likely need two anyway for volume reasons), and obviously tilting the cab on it's side would completely ruin the horizontal dispersion.

I'd love to try out one of the new angled 3-12 array cabs to see if it could more closely hang with the TC on small stages.

The End.

Hope those insights either prove helpful, inspire a fresh round of GAS, or both...I'll update again once I get ears on the Changeling, and if I end up getting to play with the 12/6/1 or any other cab that I'm curious about trying (F112, MAS, RevSound, etc.)

Big thanks to everyone involved for the generous loaners and making this comparison testing possible.

Making me feel better about my BB2 PA I assembled. I wanted a rig that could handle deeper lows without subs. I was considering Duke’s cabs for the rear-fire feature, as my current project uses lots of playback samples, and I’m looking to create a “realistic” 3-D space with two stereo speaker cabs. I think the deeper lows are more meaningful for me.

Agreed on the BB2 compression driver handling distortion better than many other tweeters. It has limitations on what comes out sounding good, like anything, but I think it handles distortion exceptionally well.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[MDBass]

And cost, but the real bargain is the Hathor 1203 at $650. Two for about the price of an f112. Everything I wanted in a cab and some things I didn’t know I wanted.

I’ve had the F115, tc115af, tc212, bergs, some others...all marvelous in their own right but the 1203 is sweet spot special. Let us know how you like the changeling. I prefer the 3in mid over the horn but some don’t.

I had the chance to play another local guys Changeling: the top ports and mid cones were very cool, but the cab had some resonance issues which needed a addressing that made a true AB comparison impossible.

Hence, Duke's gracious offer of a second loaner.

I'd originally said budget was of no concern in the OP, but since it will be for some/most the affordability of the AK designs is definitely worth mentioning.

 

[MDBass]

From what I gather, Duke has fine-tuned the crossover in the TC to make it sound "musical", perhaps removing some of the nasty peaks here and there. Whilst the T3W fEARful and F11x cabinets are somewhat related, the crossovers are totally different. Steve Clift aimed for a smooth, flat, phase coherent, response; however, the F11x design seems to have a bit more aggressive character, perhaps not as flat throughout the range, plus it doesn't go quite as deep in the fundamentals. Definitely curious to know what you think about the T3W.

Steve have been kind enough to stay in touch despite my changing schedule and extended timeline: I'll definitely be reaching out to him to see if we can connect next week.

 

[MDBass]

Thanks for putting the time and energy into the shootout!

Glad to do it: it didn't end up being the sound clip resource I'd hoped it would, be hopefully some folks will still find it useful.

 

[MDBass]

Making me feel better about my BB2 PA I assembled. I wanted a rig that could handle deeper lows without subs. I was considering Duke’s cabs for the rear-fire feature, as my current project uses lots of playback samples, and I’m looking to create a “realistic” 3-D space with two stereo speaker cabs. I think the deeper lows are more meaningful for me.

Agreed on the BB2 compression driver handling distortion better than many other tweeters. It has limitations on what comes out sounding good, like anything, but I think it handles distortion exceptionally well.

Thanks for sharing.

I'll definitely have to check out one of those dark ambient soundbaths: a soundtrack from hell through dual BB2s would certainly be an experience.

 

[MDBass]

Thank you very much. "Flat sounding" is good in some contexts and not in others.



The tiltback kickstand on that Thunderchild 112 is a custom thing, not normally part of the cab, 'cause it's a PITA to do.



Imo the Changeling isn't going to compete with the Thunderchild for accuracy; its goal posts were in a different place.

Good to know about the Changeling: the top ports may end up accomplishing the same goal as the kickback, and I found myself preferring the top switch down on the TC to tame the tweeter for most things.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

From what I gather, Duke has fine-tuned the crossover in the TC to make it sound "musical", perhaps removing some of the nasty peaks here and there.

When I designed the original Thunderchild 112, I had no idea where the "goal posts" were for electric bass. So I fell back on the only thing I knew how to do, which was arguably "accurate", with a lot of attention being paid to the radiation pattern. Fortunately for me, that worked for enough bass players that I could get into the game.

The crossover is of course part of it, but imo getting the radiation pattern right comes first. And the reason is, while the crossover can fix nasty peaks, it cannot fix a nasty radiation pattern.

In other words, imo the most important decisions have already been made long before the crossover design begins.

Note that Alex, Greenboy, and Genzler are ALL paying a lot of attention to radiation patterns. I don't think there is a "wrong" choice out of the four of us, just variations in how we choose to apply the same basic set of principles. Imo the radiation pattern is a place where yesteryear's bass cabs left a lot of room for improvement, and a lot of today's designers (in addition to the four of us here) are working to fix that.

 

[MDBass]

When I designed the original Thunderchild 112, I had no idea where the "goal posts" were for electric bass. So I fell back on the only thing I knew how to do, which was arguably "accurate", with a lot of attention being paid to the radiation pattern. Fortunately for me, that worked for enough bass players that I could get into the game.

The crossover is of course part of it, but imo getting the radiation pattern right comes first. And the reason is, while the crossover can fix nasty peaks, it cannot fix a nasty radiation pattern.

In other words, imo the most important decisions have already been made long before the crossover design begins.

Note that Alex, Greenboy, and Genzler are ALL paying a lot of attention to radiation patterns. I don't think there is a "wrong" choice out of the four of us, just variations in how we choose to apply the same basic set of principles. Imo the radiation pattern is a place where yesteryear's bass cabs left a lot of room for improvement, and a lot of today's designers (in addition to the four of us here) are working to fix that.

There goes Duke trying to sell someone else's products again

 

[tombowlus]

Great job, MDBass! Thanks for sharing!

FWIW, I did some speaker testing last week, which included the Changeling 112T, and I must say, it exhibited some of the most consistent off-axis measurements I have seen - meaning that 15, 30 and 45 degrees off axis measured much more similarly to the on-axis placement than what I see with most other cabs.

 

[agedhorse]

Great job, MDBass! Thanks for sharing!

FWIW, I did some speaker testing last week, which included the Changeling 112T, and I must say, it exhibited some of the most consistent off-axis measurements I have seen - meaning that 15, 30 and 45 degrees off axis measured much more similarly to the on-axis placement than what I see with most other cabs.

Perhaps this might dispel the urban myth that ALL 12" drivers beam at (fill in the blank) Hz... there are so many geometrical variables that come into play outside of purely the diameter and wavelength. Otherwise they would all measure identically with t he same fall-off curves off axis.

 

[John D Harris]

Thanks @MDBass for your thoughts!
The few decent sound clips I've heard of the ThunderChild 112 it was just the smoothest, most musical bass cab I've ever heard.
I think the EA CX-310 that I used to own & gigged for several years was possibly a bit more accurate, but not as smooth.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

FWIW, I did some speaker testing last week, which included the Changeling 112T, and I must say, it exhibited some of the most consistent off-axis measurements I have seen - meaning that 15, 30 and 45 degrees off axis measured much more similarly to the on-axis placement than what I see with most other cabs.

Thank you Tom! Imo what's happening off-axis is usually more important than what's happening on-axis.

We tend to think of frequency response as one thing and radiation pattern as something else, but the radiation pattern IS the frequency response of the off-axis energy, which is by far MOST of the energy the cab puts out. So...

Kudos to you and Bass Gear Magazine for recognizing this early on, and including measurements at 15, 30, and 45 degrees from the beginning!!

(Drawing on decades of experience investigating what really matters in loudspeaker design, Dr. Floyd Toole, retired Director of R&D at Harmon International, describes, in his landmark book “Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms", five parameters which, taken together, are good predictors of subjective preference. They are:

1. The first-arrival sound’s frequency response at the listening position;
2. The spatially-averaged response across a window plus or minus 30 degrees horizontal and plus or minus 10 degrees vertical;
3. The spatially-averaged response of the early reflections from the four walls, ceiling, and floor;
4. The sound power, or the sum total of the speaker’s acoustic energy radiation; and
5. The directivity index, which looks at the difference between the first-arrival sound’s frequency response and the sound power (summed omnidirectional response).

Four of those five parameters are dominated by off-axis energy. Granted the context of Toole's work is home audio rather than prosound, but to the extent that the general principles are tied to human hearing perception, they are applicable.)

 

[12bass]

Cool... I visited Toole's lab at the NRC in Ottawa back in 1987. The anechoic chamber was interesting....

 

[Roxbororob]

I'd originally said budget was of no concern in the OP, but since it will be for some/most the affordability of the AK designs is definitely worth mentioning.

This is an important point for guys like me.
Thanks for the effort you put into this thread and sharing your thoughts.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Thanks for the updates MDB, was starting to wonder if you were ok!
I just returned from a trip to the Bay Area with a hope of trying some super cabs but alas, the planets did not align. That's ok, I got caught up with a number of friends and family. I also played out a few times. I played a Pro Amp into a Tech 212 the silver front one, I think it's an older iteration It sounded good but slightly chocked up compared to my AE212. I assume because of the smaller more narrow box. Also the highs were very cutting, harsh I thought. But I didn't mess with anything and didn't turn knobs since I was just sitting in.
I had plans to visit a member here to hear the new MAS28 but his wife and child got sick so obviously I wasn't going to intrude when they weren't well.
I'm chanting my new mantra, all things in their own time, good things come to those who wait.
And who can forget the immortal words Jacque Clouseau, "all will be well soon". As he pulls the wrong tooth of Dreyfuss, while both are inhaling nitrous! Haha
Hummmm I wonder......... whipped cream........

 

[Djadja]

I'd love to try out one of the new angled 3-12 array cabs to see if it could more closely hang with the TC on small stages.

Thanks again for this experiment. While the files may have been interesting, I was most interested in your impressions and find them very helpful. I will be very interested in your take on the changling.

Just FYI, I’ve been playing the Genzler BA12-3 since shortly after they were released. I find that a single one works for me but I do need to get it up off the floor. I use a stand with it all of the time. I expect the angled version would require the stand less but I’m not sure whether I still may want it up off the floor, especially on a small stage.

When I purchased that cab the ones you gravitated to were the ones I considered - Audiokinesis (although I was most interested in the Hathor), Greenboy, Barefaced, and Genzler. None were available for me to try so I was flying in the dark. I don’t remember what exactly tilted me toward the Genzler but I’ve been very pleased with it. I also have no doubt that I would have been happy with any of them. Since then I have also added the smaller BA10-2. It is amazing for such a small cab but there is a trade-off. I greatly prefer the sound of the BA12-3. I haven’t decided whether the smaller footprint and easier schlep are worth the trade-off. At some point I may pass it forward and get a second BA12-3, perhaps the angled one. Or maybe not. Time will tell. If you can find a stack of two of them, it may be an interesting experiment. That would give you the different form factor vs. the 210-3 and the angle up to hear things better but the 110 does have a different woofer, different array speakers and a higher crossover than the bigger brothers. All of that adds up to a brighter cab with a bit less low end.