The difference between an average player and monster chops...

[BassHappy]

Hey

Thanks again for all the posts - I really appreciate hearing all the opinions on the subject. Of course, I completely agree with most of you - it is simply to each his own as far as scale length goes - and nothing is more important than playing the right note at the right time with the correct feel. Wow touchy touchy in some cases - I sense some real animosity - no apologies, I have exposed a raw nerve with some of you. It's a good thing.

I find it particularly amusing that a percentage of you have never even been near a QUALITY medium scale bass - never heard one or played one - but yet my my my - SO opinionated - so I will take a lot of these comments with a grain of salt. Experience is the best teacher and many of you just don't have any when it comes to a quality medium scale bass - as pointed out - they are in VERY short supply.

The original post still stands - if you are a budding bassist to be or a seasoned pro with physical size limitations with respect to your hands or fingers - or - as pointed out so eloquently here - age is setting in and you want an easier time of it - your comfort, agility, stamina and overall chops will simply improve dramatically if you move to a medium scale in many cases. For us smaller handed dudes, it just fits. I have seen it time and time again, not only with myself but with many of my students over the years. Most of them would lug their Fenders to the lessons, ask to "try out" my medium scale PRS #11, and then I couldn't even get it back from them - and had to teach them on their basses. I have also seen a few budding bassists-to-be fall by the wayside because they just couldn't make it on the long scale bass and lost interest - I find that to be a real shame.

So maybe now some of you, when in your local music store will want to try a medium scale bass and see what all the fuss is about. Maybe grab that BlastCult "ThirtyTwo" or that Fender Pawn Shop Reverse Jaguar or that Gretsch Electromatic 5123B or that Fender Squire Vintage Modified Tele Bass off the wall and take it for a spin. The Tele is too cool with the frets pressed right into the neck old school - no fingerboard - and selling on the street for a cool $289. Mine is with Pat Wilkins at the moment and getting a facelift. I also purchased another neck and have another "surprise" in the works.

I will share a story with you - when Keith Roscoe built my first medium scale bass with an RMC piezo/midi system in 1999, I went down to pick it up and when I walked in Keith had this really strange look on his face. He had just finished the set up and had been playing the bass through his amp. I asked him what was wrong, and he suddenly grinned and looked at me and said: "You know Rick, this is my first medium scale and I just plugged it in and it knocked my socks off. I have always heard all of these negative stories about how shorter scales sound - but I got to tell you - this bass sounds as good as any bass I have ever made." He went on to make me a twin and he did the finish work for me on the custom Viola bass I designed and had built.

By the way, I was working in LA with Happy the Man and Ken Scott (Jeff Beck, Billy Cobham, Beatles, Supertramp, Dixie Dregs, Elton John) - and we were working from noon to midnight and Stanley Clarke was working from midnight to noon. Ken introduced me and we hung a while - and Stanley told me I could use any of the basses left behind in the studio if I wanted to. He had a really cool Jazz Bass, and during the session I strapped it on and hit a few notes and Ken simply shook his head and pointed back to my PRS. The sound difference was THAT dramatic. Tunes are streaming here if you are interested:

http://www.everythinghappytheman.com/music.html

By the way, Stanley's main Alembic at that time WAS a medium scale. I played it, but he took that one home with him!



Be well and allow for magic and by all means keep on pluckin'

Best,

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net
Invalid Link Removed

 

[Mike M.]

My very first bass (back in 1970) was a cheap Crestwood hollow body which was replaced by a Gibson EB-3 and both were shorter scale basses. My next bass was a Rickenbacer 4001. I had no problem going from a shorter to a longer scale back then and could zip around and the Ric just as easy as on the Gibson.

That was a long time ago. I've had very physical jobs for decades and due to a lot of gripping because of the nature of my work I've noticed a definate slowdown in my hands. Not so much with my fretting hand but more with my plucking hand. No pain, just "not what they use to be." My point being, while going from a long to a shorter scale might help others I'm at the point where it really wouldn't make it any easier for me. I can fret and play very easy on my 34" scale 4 and 5 strings but again, if the plucking hand is slowing down then there's really no point going to a shorter scaled bass.

Besides, I've never really been the "hey look at how much notes per second I can play" type of player. That's why I love players like McCartney so much. The right note at the right time with the right feel. That's music to my ears.

 

[mcm]

34 inch is the only way IMO

 

[Jim Nazium]

My band, requires a ridiculous amount of chops just to keep up.

I was trying to think of a word to describe a band where the players need miniature instruments to play fast enough. I think you found it for me.

 

[BassHappy]

Hey Mr. Nazium

From Takoma Park MD?

So you don't know Happy the Man?

That was our stomping ground - Baltimore and DC.

BassHappy

 

[topo morto]

I asked a similar question recently.

comes down to this:

Some people are big / supple enough to be not limited by 34"+ scales. Fair Enough.

Some people don't care that they are limited by 34"+ scales (they see it as a useful 'brake'). Fair enough.

But some people are so used to the limitations of 34"+ scales that they don't realise how much more they could do on a shorter scale instrument.

 

[unclejane]

The original post still stands - if you are a budding bassist to be or a seasoned pro with physical size limitations with respect to your hands or fingers - or - as pointed out so eloquently here - age is setting in and you want an easier time of it - your comfort, agility, stamina and overall chops will simply improve dramatically if you move to a medium scale in many cases. For us smaller handed dudes, it just fits. I have seen it time and time again, not only with myself but with many of my students over the years. Most of them would lug their Fenders to the lessons, ask to "try out" my medium scale PRS #11, and then I couldn't even get it back from them - and had to teach them on their basses. I have also seen a few budding bassists-to-be fall by the wayside because they just couldn't make it on the long scale bass and lost interest - I find that to be a real shame.

You guys are funny. I loved how the discussion immediately went OT into:
- chops? we don't need no steenkeeng chops.
- 34" scale r00lez!
- short scale sux0r!
and my favorite of the utterly and completely contentless platitudes on TB:
- you have to play what appeals to YOU.

But nobody really addressed the underlying topic, that I could see, namely:
- does a shorter scale than 34" have a real application for certain players?
- does it work?
- do good quality SS instruments exist?
- how do they perform compared to 34" + scale?
- myth or fact?

Preliminarily I'd have to say that Happy has the upper hand at the moment. If his reports are to be believed (and right now I don't see a reason not to believe them), he's played enough SS instruments to have some reasonably good answers to these questions. Eg. SS does have an application for smaller players, there are good SS instruments and they seem to perform as good as 34" scale instruments.

As I said, my only experience with shorter-then-34" scale is with the Rick 4001/3. And that bass's only good quality (for me) was the shorter scale. So my conclusion that 34" is preferable may only be a matter of availability. I dunno, but I'm willing to question that.

I'm also old, have lots of damage in the arms and ears and may eventually not be as capable on a 34" scale. Going to a SS instrument may be a reasonable course of action for me at some point.

Finally, the 34" scale is really just a standard. Leo Fender came up with it when he designed the Fender bass and it simply stuck for those legacy reasons. Research on whether that's an ideal (as opposed to simply a standard) has come later and seems to be mostly "skunkworks" projects since then. Happy has pointed a lot of these cases out.

So in my view, it looks like there's evidence that shorter-than-34"-scale can work, especially for smaller and/or injured players. Something to consider.

LS

 

[JimmyM]

I remember Happy The Man. Very cool prog band from the 70's. Anyway, TB is like that. Welcome.

 

[cfsporn]

My two favorite basses right now are a 32" scale Alembic and a 36" scale Schack. I've also finally fixed my FBass and I can't put it down (34.5").

To me, using a different scale bass is like using a different playing style (slap, pick, pluck). Just another color in your musical palette.

 

[BassHappy]

Good post, Uncle Jane, I appreciate the support and it's nice to see a voice of reason here....

And thanks Jimmy for the kind words about Happy the Man...

Really appreciate it...

So you know we signed to InsideOut Germany and put out "The Muse Awakens" in 2005. David Rosenthal from Rainbow/Cindi Lauper/Whitesnake/Steve Vai replaced Kit on Keyboards. David has been Billy Joel's keyboardist for the past 20 years or so.

Ron Riddle, who was our drummer on Crafty Hands (Stu Hamm/Blue Oyster Cult) played drums for a while but got busy with his film music career and was replaced by Joe Bergamini.

Record is out of print but you can find them here and there but rather expensive.

Best,

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net
www.everythinghappytheman,com

 

[nukes_da_bass]

Im an average decent semi-pro bassist. I hold down the groove, have a few bitchin chops.
"Monsters" are cats that can play multiple voices at once.
One day in the 1990s i was shopping on west 48th st. Maybe in Rudys.
This middle aged cat was laying it down on a Pedula fretless 5 and simultaneously playing THREE separate voices and at LEAST two alternating time signatures (that i could hear, anyways...might have been deeper than that!).
I was like "dude you are a GIANT!".
He responded "not really pal, i havent picked up a bass in months. Im really rusty!"
THATS a monster.

 

[BassChuck]

Ray Brown did pretty well on a 41" scale.

 

[ebonalley]

I'll bridge this thread with jimmym's p bass thread. When is fender going to get their heads out of their butt and build a straight up medium scale p? Owning one will lead me to believe that I'm a better player for at least two weeks.

 

[blue4]

OP I'm going to go off the path here and actually answer your questions in your first post.

Yes, if I could gain 10-20% in my playing ability by going 32" I would do it without a second thought. I have a inkling that everyone in this thread would do the same if guaranteed 10-20%. Who in their right mind wouldn't?

Yes, I think many players would benefit from going shorter. Esp if you have small hands or something like arthritis. I know I use them when I need to learn a song, or when I can't take my eyes off the music.

I find no difference between 34" and 32" tone wise. I also think there are times when a 30" sounds best in a song.

 

[lowphatbass]

.....
Yes, if I could gain 10-20% in my playing ability by going 32" I would do it without a second thought. I have a inkling that everyone in this thread would do the same if guaranteed 10-20%. Who in their right mind wouldn't?
.....

An increase in chops does not equal in increase in playing ability for me.

I while back I got a wild hair and decided to crank it up and go off a bit on a soul/funk gig. On the first break a couple of dudes came-up and complimented me on my "monster chops", and I gotta say it felt pretty good. Not long into the conversation I realized that they were talking about my sideburns.

 

[Dbassmon]

Where I come from, chops is the least important part of monster bass playing.

Unless you are a soloist, the restraint to play what is essential and supportive to the groove is my definition of a monster.

Harmonic sense and great time feel trumps fast fingers 24/7 365.

For anyone who wants to develop fast chops, I can offer some advice: the secret to playing fast is playing slowly, but accurately! Repetition with slight increase in speed over time is how you get fast. Accuracy is the one thing you should not compromise on, Fast and sloppy is noise.

You are deluding yourself if you try and tie great playing and musicianship to equipment, scale or any other hardware. Get practicing, you will improve every aspect of your sound, chops and mastery.

 

[pdusen]

OP, just as an fyi, every post you're writing here comes off as incredibly condescending and it makes a less experienced player like myself really not care whether you're right or not.

 

[JimmyM]

Where I come from, chops is the least important part of monster bass playing.

Unless you are a soloist, the restraint to play what is essential and supportive to the groove is my definition of a monster.

Harmonic sense and great time feel trumps fast fingers 24/7 365.

Unless of course the music you're playing demands fast fingers. I said what you said to Steve Morse one time, but he didn't fire Dave LaRue and hire me

Of course, Dave has awesome time and feel, too. Chops without feel is wankery. Chops WITH feel is a whole different ballgame.

 

[David Jayne]

Whatever works. I've tried a couple and still own one, a 32". They don't sound the same. I prefer the 34" sound. Played a 35" for about 10 years and went back to 34".
For me, lighter tension strings allow me to play as many, and sometimes too many, notes per second as I please.

 

[Dbassmon]

Unless of course the music you're playing demands fast fingers. I said what you said to Steve Morse one time, but he didn't fire Dave LaRue and hire me

Of course, Dave has awesome time and feel, too. Chops without feel is wankery. Chops WITH feel is a whole different ballgame.

No doubt Jimmy, Dave has it all. Steve Morris band, and fusion in general, has little to do with what 99.99% of us bass players will ever be called on to do. If fact, if Dave LaRue was to unleash his considerable arsenal of technique and chops on most gigs, he would likely be fired for overplaying.