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The difference between an average player and monster chops...

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#141
DiabolusInMusic said:
...

I started on 3/4 scale (A Korean made Regal) and found the transition to my first 34" strange, ...
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Me too! I started on my 3/4 bass 42.5" scale, HK-made fully carved, and found the transition to a 34" scale bass guitar strange.

I got a backup semi-solid, which I'm using now while my carved gets repaired, and it's a little bit easier to play some things on the shorter 40 5/8" scale, but I'll go back to my carved's 42.5" ASAP.


maturanesa said:
Having bass chops is all about the RIGHT HAND. A medium, short and a 34' scale are the same!
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Yeah, so all those lefty playing south paws have one up on the righties, right? Write. Wry't, Rye'd.

Brad Johnson said:
He listed Weather Report as one of the bands that influenced him. Maybe that guy could've been x% better on a shortscale?
:D
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I read an interview with Miroslav Vitous who said, regarding his predilection to upright vs bass guitar: he said that although he used to play bass guitar occasionally, he didn't anymore because he could play as fast on his upright as the "new guy" in Weather Report could on bass guitar, so why would/should he bother playing a bass guitar?


I have large hands. So, I'm most comfortable on my DB. Playing a 34" scale bass guitar can be quite uncomfy and awkward at times, even playing the 3-finger DB approach on the lower frets.

I'd love to try some short-scale basses, but not because I'm hoping for a miraculous boost in ability. That will still come from practice. The shortest I've tried are U-basses and Ashburies, both great fun and hopefully I'll have some in future.

Very little mention in the thread of the 34.5 scale, or the early Gibson long-scales at 34 3/8".

There's some very petite people in the orchestra here, one in particular has very small hands and dainty fingers, but I didn't notice her struggling with any of the music.

Conversely, Iz had fat sausage-like fingers and yet he managed to get around his ukulele okay. Same thing with some guitarists I know – you have to wonder how/why their fat fingers aren't choking off most of the notes in the chord shapes they're playing.

Speaking of chord shapes, the Jaguar guitar (24" scale) and in particular the Byrdland (23.5") were designed to accommodate extended chord voicings/fingerings otherwise too difficult to manage on a longer scale.

I've seen very accomplished musicians, with hands of all shapes and sizes, on all manner of instruments (and sizes) make music, and that's all that matters.

Why is this posted in "Basses"? Even the title of thread doesn't really correspond with the sub-forum nor the actual topic and content of mid-scale basses purportedly being an enabler of so-called chops. Perhaps "Technique" or "Miscellaneous" would've been better suited.


SRFSterling5 said:
... Make music, not chops.
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Hear, Hear!
Chops are for getting logs and kindling on the fire.
 
#142
thiocyclist said:
He didn't imply just some. He made it sound like an absolute. That is definitely overreach.
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There are two types of threads on TB

1) ones that split into two warring camps

2) ones that almost everyone ignores, bot one person writes "use what works for you", then some other chump says "WORD" or "^ THIS", then the thread dies.

There's really no reason to work too hard making sure your thread turns into a 'type 2'. Hence, the wording of the OP is perfect for TB.

At least in a type 1 thread, someone will chime in with an interesting perspective or two.
 
#143

I do have a medium scale Alembic and a few short scales (Fender Mustang, Danelectro Longhorn and Kalamazoo EBO copy). I really can't tell much difference between them and my 34 or 35" scale basses as far as getting around on them.
Upright is 42" and if anything I play any Electric Bass quicker after playing a bit on DB or EUB.
Where does Stanley Clarke figure in all this? He plays a 30" Alembic and a 42" upright.
Strange little discussion.....
To me, the difference between an average player and monster chops is lots and lots of practice! ;)
 
#144
IMO a player with real "chops" can make good music on whatever instrument feels right to him or her. Scale length has nothing to do with it, nor does number or speed of notes. Everyone is different, and there have been great players playing all scale lengths.
 
#146
I definitly think going from long to short scale can help some people, but I also think that going with a thinner neck (like my Ibanez SR) or changing string spacing (like 19 to 17) can also give some people an increase in speed/stamina.

Side note: I think most people here know that practice is required to be a good player. Why must we keep sayin it?

Thread disclaimer: Most of the pros mentioned here are unique talents. Results are NOT typical. :)
 
#147
BassHappy said:
Hello All

Glad no one holds back here - really amusing stuff for the most part. Wow, I started WWIII - who knew?
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Well it's good that Jimmy issued the butthurt report form, we at least have a place to go with our various butthurts on the topic. So at least there's that.
First of all, if you read the original post I NEVER stated that you would improve your chops 10-20% by switching, I simply posed the question using "IF" - here is the exact sentence:

"if you knew for a fact that after a few serious weeks on a QUALITY medium scale - your chops would improve 10-20% - would you consider switching?"
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To summarize at this point, the resistance (skepticism, really) is coming from a couple of sources:
- a vague definition of the term "chops"
- vague specification of what "10-20% improvement" means
- the general pedagogical reality that immediate, punctuated improvements in technique, musicianship, etc., are extremely rare and hard to attribute to, and not usually accompanied by, simple changes to the instrument.

So in my view, the criticisms that have been raised against your OP are legitimate. Is the improvement you're talking about really due to the shorter scale? Or is it down in the noise of something else about the change in the instrument? How do you account for the strangeness of the implied claim (of a sudden "10-20% improvement" in "chops") with respect to current pedagogy in music education and the experiences there (eg. Roy Vogt could be very explicit about this part)? There are problems there and guys are raising good questions about it.

OTOH, I do agree that you probably have evidence that going to a short scale can improve a player's "chops" by some amount, so it's probably not something we can just dismiss out of hand. I"ve observed it myself in some limited circumstances with my own playing.

So it's a little bit of a mixed bag at this point. There are all kinds of variables and it's difficult to isolate just one or two.

In my case, for example, my "chops" were definitely negatively impacted when I switched to fretless full time about 10 years ago (desperation move to improve my sound, but no change in scale, 34" was retained). It was suddenly much harder for me to get around on the instrument because of the additional stretching required (among other things).

But my tone is so vastly, vastly better than it was on the fretted - I can actually hear the notes I play now, some of em - that I basically didn't care. Now, on occasion, I don't sound like a total n00b all the time, and some notes actually sound like a real bass player. So was that really a decrease in "chops"? or was it in fact an _increase_?

So that's kind of where it stands now. The criticisms against "chops" and "10-20% improvement" are legitimate, and the pedagogical experiences, Eg. as expressed by Roy and others, seem to be contrary to the implicit claim in the question.

Finally, I'd encourage the use of the butthurt form issued by Jimmy if anyone's really losing sleep over this.

LS
 
#148
JimmyM said:
butthurt-report-form.jpg
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Hilarious ;)
 
#149
BassHappy said:
As an Army veteran with an ARCOM on my wall and a former member of an MP unit in Germany, I have no doubts about my masculinity.
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Everybody else does. Please provide more evidence. Did you play football at one point in your life? Have you ever driven a truck??

BassHappy said:
The only surprise is that no one listened to the tunes or at least if they did they didn't have the balls to comment on them. The YouTube video which was from 1977 or so, DOES have a clip of the band playing "Knee Bitten Nymphs in Limbo" but it is at the end of the clip. No one seemed to make it over to the HTM juke box either, which was a surprise and a disappointment.

I would love to see what percentage of you could even play the basslines to "Knee Bitten Nymphs In Limbo". If you really think you can cut it - send me a clip, i would love to hear it. That will certainly give me a chance to laugh a little more as well.

PS: here is a more recent clip of the band performing a song called "Service With a Smile" - it's a quick 2:39 of 11/8. Some of you might actually be able to play that one and it's short enough to maybe hold your apparently brief attention spans. Tune was written by Ron Riddle (Stu Hamm/Blue Oyster Cult) along with Greg Hawkes of the Cars.



Sorry Audio disappointing on both clips

Enjoy and Happy Plucking,

BassHappy
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Not sure if I'm on your ignore list, but I posted that older video earlier and commented on it. Great outfits!!!

I'd be interested to learn some Happy The Man licks, but there is way too much prog and not enough rock, I couldn't sit through the cacophony of cartoon keyboards.

Also, did I notice the bass player using a pick? And a short scale? Can I get you a Strat or an LP maybe? ;)
 
#151
Hello All

This is a re-post as the moderator decided I went over the line on the last one. Hopefully this is cleaned up enough to pass muster. Sorry about that.

Glad no one holds back here - really amusing stuff for the most part. Wow, I started WWIII - who knew?

First of all, if you read the original post I NEVER stated that you would improve YOUR chops 10-20% by switching, I simply posed the question using "IF" - here is the exact sentence:

"if you knew for a fact that after a few serious weeks on a QUALITY medium scale - your chops would improve 10-20% - would you consider switching?"

It's funny, cause now I get it. The answer is - even if it did improve your chops most of you wouldn't switch. Cool. Case closed.

Of course, I realized a dramatic improvement in chops when I got my PRS #11, but I wasn't suggesting necessarily that everyone would. I was simply posing the question. I already knew and was well aware of the prejudice that exists against shorter scale instruments. I simply wanted to know, IF you knew it would improve your playing ability, would you switch? I witnessed this a few times over my teaching career - so I DO know that it happens.

To me chops is just an overall term I like to use that defines your overall playing ability. Maybe that is wrong. Sure, things were cleaner, faster, my agility improved as did my stamina and overall ease of playing - and yes, even though our friendly moderator denies it, my articulation also improved - maybe it was the string spacing on the PRS being a slight bit narrower but for whatever reason my picking/right hand agility also improved. Not sure why, but it's a fact in my experience. Go figure.

The only surprise is that no one listened to the tunes or at least if they did they didn't have the nerve to comment on them. The YouTube video which was from 1977 or so, DOES have a partial clip of the band playing "Knee Bitten Nymphs in Limbo" but it is at the end of the clip. No one seemed to make it over to the HTM juke box either, which was a surprise and a disappointment. I guess most of you think that such an arrogant, condescending a** doesn't deserve any face time at the juke box. Cool.

NEWS FLASH: Just noticed that Jim777 actually listened. Praise the lord and pass the mashed potatoes! Thanks SO MUCH for the kind words. HTM is not for everyone, but the folks who get it really GET IT!

I would love to see what percentage of you could even play the basslines to "Knee Bitten Nymphs In Limbo" as an example. If you really think you can cut it - send me a clip, i would love to hear it.

PS: here is a more recent clip of the band performing a song called "Service With a Smile" - it's a quick 2:39 of 11/8. Tune was written by Ron Riddle (Stu Hamm/Blue Oyster Cult) along with Greg Hawkes of the Cars.



It is the beginning of the show and there is an intro of some classical music - give it a moment.

Sorry audio disappointing - it was just the mic on the camera.

Enjoy and Happy Plucking,

BassHappy
 
#152
Wow, just a great band. I'm sorry I didn't hear about you guys sooner, but it's like finding a time capsule filled with awesome lol. You remind me a bit of FM, another great prog band that didn't get as big as it could/should have. When I saw them open for Rush on the Permanent Waves tour, I was sure they'd be big in a few months. As I said earlier, I will DEFINITELY be looking for your music.
 
#154
Honestly, what is the point of this thread? Medium scale length may feel more comfortable to you, but that's all it really is. This comfort level allows you to move around the instrument better.

But you could say this about anything. Lower tension strings, different string spacing, different neck profiles, different fingerboard radiusing, flats versus rounds... And yet I've never before seen a thread implicitly stating that switching to Y over X will increase chops 10 to 20%...

TalkBass is all about being exposed to different gear, techniques, and players. It should be obvious enough that there is no one-size-fits-all philosophy here, which makes your contention seem slightly offensive, firstly because it assumes the average player is biased against shorter scales, and secondly because the endorsement of shorter scales is pretty dogmatic on its own.
 
#156
malthumb said:
This bass solo / drum solo woulda been so much better if the bassist was using a medium scale and the drummer was using chopsticks...

(if you're the impatient type, fast forward to 1:02)

http://youtu.be/Uc4oPqmCbFA

:hiding:
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Imagine what that bass players chops would be if he played a smaller scale bass? He should ditch that Sadowsky. It's clearly holding him back.

That Sadowsky tone always gives me a stem.
 
#159
JimmyM said:
Scale length means nothing as far as ability to play fast. You just like them better so you feel more free on them. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not a universal reaction.
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I agree with this. I could give a crap about what the scale length. I think I have pretty good "chops" and My favorite bass is a 35". I like think I'm a good mix of a groove player and a "chops" player and I'm not interested in moving to a short to impove chops.

I don't think it's true. Why because the frets are closer together? I like the 35" because they are't as close together up high on the neck. It's personal perfence and I personally haven't played a 30" that I like the feel or sound of. I haven't tried every bass so it could still be out there.
 
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