The end of tubes??? Thoughts?

[agedhorse]

How much do you need?

A lot of digits for building production quantities of various tubes efficiently (without lots of expensive western labor).

 

[eddybuzzard]

I thought we would go to environmental hell, if we ever made tubes in the USA again

 

[mike buzzetti]

I thought we would go to environmental hell, if we ever made tubes in the USA again

no just regular hell

 

[Jeff Scott]

A lot of digits for building production quantities of various tubes efficiently (without lots of expensive western labor).

I'll check with my...oh, never mind...

 

[tothemax]

Face it, we are in a global economy, and... because of that unified pressure can be applied to an aggressive member. It will always be cheaper to build things in regions with cheaper labor and access to raw materials. That doesn't mean we can't produce the same items locally at a "reasonably" higher cost. I think with the hit the auto and computer industries are taking due the transportation delays from COVID, that the dependence on foreign suppliers is being revisited. Having spent a good portion of my working life in the trades, labor in this country like the cost of housing is out of control. When an oil change at the dealer is $95.00 something is seriously wrong... I guess you could ask the guy that bought that football and few hours later found out Brady isn't retiring.

I'm a believer in having spares, I try to keep a extra set of tubes on hand, like strings, and batteries... just because...

 

[fishdude101101]

I can't see guitar players not using tube amps. Bass players, meh.

I agree 100%. I'm ok with or without tube bass amps, but solid state guitar amps kinda suck. I can tell the difference 9 out of 10 times. The ones that usually get me are the tube amps that try their hardest not to sound like tubes.

 

[mike buzzetti]

Real Russian tube

 

[rickdog]

The primary advantaged of SiC transistors are in low on resistance and fast switching times. They are not at all optimized for linear applications.

Did I hear you mutter "class D" as you turned away?

 

[MattZilla]

Seven pages in, I’m sure this has been said at least twelve times:

Strings, wood necks…

bass guitars, and guitars…

physical instruments are as popular and necessary as cars & trucks with manual transmissions at this point anyways.

it’s a nostalgia-fueled industry.

 

[JimmyM]

Seven pages in, I’m sure this has been said at least twelve times:

Strings, wood necks…

bass guitars, and guitars…

physical instruments are as popular and necessary as cars & trucks with manual transmissions at this point anyways.

it’s a nostalgia-fueled industry.

Yes and no. All musicians use the music they loved as kids as benchmarks to make new music. Not everyone is as enthralled about the tech, especially where schleps and repair costs are concerned. Like everyone loves Mellotrons but nobody wants the touring hassle of keeping one working, though that's just what Mellotron users did in the 60's and 70's. But tube tech is solid, new tubes have improved by leaps and bounds (most anyway), and maintenance frequency and costs are not out of line with any other type of amps.

 

[bassguitarist85]

I own two tube amps, one is a very unique SMPS 300W tube, and the other traditional PSU recently a few weeks ago re-tubed with a full compliment of 6CA7 EH and preamp EHs before the market bottom fell out. I also own a heavy class A/B SS 700W head, and a 1000W Class D head thats only 9lbs!

My point is it's important to embrace all technologies. I really do notice a different amp response, aka "feel" with tubes though. Modeler amps while they sound amazing, dont exactly have that feel IMHO.

Tubes will always be around. Owning tube amps are the same as owning a classic car. If you are willing to pay to own one, spend the time searching for parts, and maintenance for it, then you can.

 

[agedhorse]

Did I hear you mutter "class D" as you turned away?

Good observation. I'm "sure" SiC is being looked at closely in both the SMPS and Class D industries. It's another way to increase the efficiency a couple percent (or more).

 

[socialleper]

The Russians aren't the only people capable of making tubes. Considering they are infamously bad engineers, it is weird that we consider Russian tubes to be good.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Yes and no. All musicians use the music they loved as kids as benchmarks to make new music. Not everyone is as enthralled about the tech, especially where schleps and repair costs are concerned. Like everyone loves Mellotrons but nobody wants the touring hassle of keeping one working, though that's just what Mellotron users did in the 60's and 70's. But tube tech is solid, new tubes have improved by leaps and bounds (most anyway), and maintenance frequency and costs are not out of line with any other type of amps.

Mmmm,
Mel-lo-tronnnn

 

[seamonkey]

remember...junction material does not survive EMP...hollow state thermonic emission do...just sayin'...ss

Not true
In the original EMP tests tube gear did fail.
And
The solid state PRC-77 VHF manpackable two-way radio survived extensive EMP testing.[45]

The Sun is a constant source of EM
Parker Probe satellite has kissed the Sun - it is Computerized

 

[fdeck]

Seven pages in, I’m sure this has been said at least twelve times:

Strings, wood necks…

bass guitars, and guitars…

physical instruments are as popular and necessary as cars & trucks with manual transmissions at this point anyways.

it’s a nostalgia-fueled industry.

I still play an instrument that was rendered obsolete by Leo Fender in 1951.

It's not just nostalgia, and it was never about necessity. There's simply no way to explain why someone forms an interest in a particular musical instrument. The physical nature of playing a musical instrument hasn't been surpassed, and if it's what inspires you, then no electronic instrument will satisfy. There's new music being composed for those obsolete instruments. I went to a bassoon recital on Friday, and the second half was all composed in the 21st century.

Also, replacing a good analog interface with a digital one is a phenomenally hard engineering problem. I believe that many of the early attempts at amp modeling failed due to user interface, not tone quality. What you can do with two hands while playing a physical instrument hasn't been replicated in the digital domain, except by simulating the physical instrument to the fullest extent possible. The only time I have ever heard improvised jazz come out of an electronic instrument on a live gig was when that instrument was derived from a mainstream keyboard.

Now, I'll be happy to be done with my stick shift car when it finally wears out.

 

[JohnnyChatter]

I heard EHX is hoarding all the tubes and letting us buy them all up so they can have them all and name their price. That’s why they are the ones talking about this the most. They can then rise the prices and we will be so relieved they are back that the prices will stay that high and we will get used to paying the new asking price…..

Jk I made that up but luckily I ordered 2 tungsol 12AX7 last week that are in the mail. I use JJ for all my power tubes and a tungsol for v1. I got a ton of NOS tubes in my basement and honestly the new production tubes typically sound better to me. They last a pretty dang long time also. I got a MESA 400+ I keep eye balling because it’s had the same set of jjs in it for several years now…. This would be the time that they fail. I got a box of 12ax7 tubes of all different makes I was gonna give away that I may hold onto now.

 

[ClusterFlux]

My point is it's important to embrace all technologies.

Or, you should use what works for you... and while you're at it, not tell other people to look at the past with rose-colored glasses.

I really do notice a different amp response, aka "feel" with tubes though.

Or, you're just hearing what you want to hear.

Professional violinists around the world are utterly convinced that Stradivarius violins sound better than anything else, and modern instruments can't possibly compete. Wanna guess what happened in blind tests?
https://www.thestrad.com/blind-test...s-violins-from-modern-instruments/994.article

I'm also fairly confident that if you're playing at a bar with crappy acoustics and a guitarist who's a bit too loud, any hair-splitting differences between a tube amp and a well-designed modeling amp will be lost on the partially inebriated audience.

And if you're in a studio, well, chances are very high these days that you're going direct and using a VST, not a tube amp, to color your tone. Yes?

Tubes will always be around. Owning tube amps are the same as owning a classic car.

Yeah, the thing is... Those classic cars are no longer mass produced, are difficult and expensive to repair, and they spend most of their time in someone's garage. They're "around" in the same sense as pagers and typewriters.

If that's the future you see for tube amps, then it sounds like you agree with Shull...

 

[LBS-bass]

The Russians aren't the only people capable of making tubes. Considering they are infamously bad engineers, it is weird that we consider Russian tubes to be good.

Honestly the only reason I recall Russia remaining in the tube business is that they still had so many obsolete systems of all sorts up into the 90's and probably beyond. They continued to make tubes because they still used a lot of them. So yes, they've perhaps always been behind in technology and that's probably why they remained one of the few manufacturers of vacuum tubes up to the present day.

 

[MattZilla]

Yes and no. All musicians use the music they loved as kids as benchmarks to make new music. Not everyone is as enthralled about the tech, especially where schleps and repair costs are concerned. Like everyone loves Mellotrons but nobody wants the touring hassle of keeping one working, though that's just what Mellotron users did in the 60's and 70's. But tube tech is solid, new tubes have improved by leaps and bounds (most anyway), and maintenance frequency and costs are not out of line with any other type of amps.

and have you driven an ND MX-5 or BRZ? Stupidly smooth shifters & clutches, perfect ratio choices, telepathic steering… IIRC the last generation of Nissan Z would rev-match for you whether you were upshifting or downshifting! I think I heard that the Mustang offered this as well. Speaking of the Mustang, it finally got independent rear suspension! A bit late. I definitely wouldn’t want the hassle of balancing individual throttle bodies on an old Lotus just to go for a drive out to my cousin’s in the sticks or to adjust the valve lash or distributor timing on… anything, ever again. It’s just not that fun anymore.

Lucky for us, there’s very few trying to make an argument for analog, group-created music being bad for the environment. So far. Though it is powered by coal and nuclear and large festivals bring out the inner litterbug in even the kindest of hula dancers..

Bass synth plugins are creating some fantastic tones that make teaching one’s muscles to operate a midi keyboard seem pretty worthwhile. 2lbs laptop and 1.8lbs deck on a 1.5lbs stand plugged into the PA seems pretty nice some nights compared to a 9lbs J tugging on your shoulder.

I’m just being argumentative.

I only like playing keys when they’re making one of five obviously keys sounds: B3, piano, wurly, Rhodes, and buzzsaw synth.

I get as much as a layman can of what AgedHorse and his peers hold as an engineer’s view and what they’re doing to push the craft of sound reproduction. I get that that’s not just “fine” for more than half of bass guitar players, but preferred by them.

I think the tone of my previous sentence pretty clearly lays out how the next four paragraphs would go

something something Baxandall blah blah 6L6GC hibbity bibbity two 215s.

Now, I'll be happy to be done with my stick shift car when it finally wears out.

you shut your filthy mou… stop typing such things on teh internet!

I’ve driven my stick car less than ten times in the past three years. I’ve also driven a car less than a hundred times in the same timeframe. It’s just not half as (insert benefit) as it used to seem to be. It’s probably different for people who live out yonder.

Out of curiosity on Saturday I rode the bus to one end of the county to do some early Xmas shopping and then to the other side for a haircut and sightseeing (Skaneateles Lake!). I’d never want to depend on it for commuting, gigging, or going out and gittin drunk until they have them hitting every stop every half hour, and on time, but geez was it nice.

If public transit outside of huge metropoli could have improved at the rate of bass amps, first world life could be much more luxuriant than it currently is.

It’s late. Im supposed to wake up in two hours for work. I should delete this before hitting Post Reply. Too bad!