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The Fifths Tuning Club

#121
d'Addario Chromes singles gauged 40, 60, 90, 132 would be my recommendation for a P or J. Flats for fifths tuning on a shortscale, not sure if you can get those without having to do custom orders or learning to shorten strings in ways that won't make them break.

Also check out this thread about really short scales - maybe you could even keep the cello scale by converting a baritone guitar that's close: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/sub-short-scale-talk.644956/
 
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#122
I meant for a regular scale P or J. If It doesn't work out for my cello fingerings, then I would look into SS 30" or maybe build something custom.

I'm just looking for a rich mellow gentle flatwound 5ths set for standard Bass Guitar for now. Any come as a normal set that fit my bill?
 
#123
Jhclark said:
I meant for a regular scale P or J. If It doesn't work out for my cello fingerings, then I would look into SS 30" or maybe build something custom.

I'm just looking for a rich mellow gentle flatwound 5ths set for standard Bass Guitar for now. Any come as a normal set that fit my bill?
Click to expand...

There are no balanced sets for fifths tuning on bass guitar that I know of - Circle K used to make 'em, however - but you can order a custom set at BassStringsOnline.

I'd go with pklima's suggestion of gauges. In doubt, try to maintain a 2/3 ratio from a string to the next one, as in 040 A > 060 D > 090 G > 135 C etc.

It's not very expensive unless you feel like buying TI flats, which is a bad idea considering they don't have the right gauges for CGDA or the like.
 
#125
Invalid Link Removed, sorta, does have a pull down selection for standard fifths tuned string sets. It is still there but like always Link Removed If you email them they may very well have fifths tuned sets available which they will get around to putting up on their website -- eventually. It is easy to build your own sets for any tuning and tension pattern you may like from their tension tables, so that is what I would do. And the store section of their website is still the old Circle K branded website. I've never used Circle K/Kalium strings but I hear they are good and they are a good company to work with. Evidently they are a lot better at making and shipping strings than they are at keeping their website current!! And that is ok, really, I would buy from them without hesitation if I ever wanted another set of rounds.

Rounds are all they make, you see, so they are not an option for Jhclark. I think you are unlikely to find fifths tuned sets from anyone else, there are just too few of us. However, companies like BassStringsOnline.com make ordering custom sets of strings affordable and painless. I've gotten all my fifths tuned strings from them except for the custom fifths set for my Squier VI that I ordered directly from LaBella. I suspect that BSO has enough fifths customers that they can give you advice on fifths sets if you ask. The string sets that I have used are:

GHS Bass Boomer (rounds): 145 95 55 35
GHS Precision Flats: 128 95 55 40 and 126 85 55 35
GHS Pressure Wound Flats: 128 84 40 28

As you can see I have had good luck with GHS but there are other brands of flats that BSO can sell as custom sets so if you prefer a different brand just look around on their website. I've never had anything but a good experience when dealing with BSO. D'Addario publishes tension tables for most of their string and I believe GHS does now too. You can use those tables to build your own custom sets even if you use another brand. I also have a spreadsheet for calculating tension (attached) that you are welcome to use/abuse. It is a bit out of date since it does not include actual GHS data or other string data released in the last year or two (who am I to criticize Circle K, eh?) but it should still be helpful.

Ooops, this new TB forum software apparently does not allow one to upload xls files so I cannot attach my latest version. If you look elsewhere in this thread you can see an older version of my tension calculator spreadsheet, I guess that is the best I can do for now.
 
#129
Buchada Azeda said:
There are no balanced sets for fifths tuning on bass guitar that I know of - Circle K used to make 'em, however - but you can order a custom set at BassStringsOnline.

I'd go with pklima's suggestion of gauges. In doubt, try to maintain a 2/3 ratio from a string to the next one, as in 040 A > 060 D > 090 G > 135 C etc.

It's not very expensive unless you feel like buying TI flats, which is a bad idea considering they don't have the right gauges for CGDA or the like.
Click to expand...

I just realized that is an octave below a cello, which is cool, but I recently became the owner of a Hofner 500 and love the short scale and thinner neck (and lightweight body??) so I'm wondering a couple of things - any way to get the required tension for a low C on a 100 ga string? (that's the largest that will fit through a Hofner bridge)

Also, what about piccolo 5ths? Anyone done that? Like a mando-cello? Or E, B, F#, C# (keeping the low E the same as a normal bass)? 100/75/50/35 could that work for 5ths starting on a low E?
 
#130
I have a Squier VI tuned CGDAEB. If you are not familiar with the Squier/Fender VIs they are 30 inch scale, six string basses that are very similar in layout to the Jazzmaster guitars, even down to the "tremolo" tailpiece! I use LaBella rounds on mine and the C string is a 0.120. Personally I think 0.100 would be a little light for a low C unless you use flats which tend to be heavier per unit length than rounds of the same diameter. Higher tunings are certainly viable, you can tune to the same octave as a cello if like. When I ordered the LaBella strings I was unsure if I would like the low C tuning so I got some extra strings in case I decided to tune FCGDAE which starts nearly on the bass guitar's low E and ends exactly on the regular guitar's high E! FCGD could make a nice bass tuning for a short scale. The VIs play pretty much like long scale guitars with their narrow necks and tight string spacings so I still have a lot of getting used to them to do. The low C on a short scale bass seems fine to me however.
 
#131
khutch said:
I have a Squier VI tuned CGDAEB. If you are not familiar with the Squier/Fender VIs they are 30 inch scale, six string basses that are very similar in layout to the Jazzmaster guitars, even down to the "tremolo" tailpiece! I use LaBella rounds on mine and the C string is a 0.120. Personally I think 0.100 would be a little light for a low C unless you use flats which tend to be heavier per unit length than rounds of the same diameter. Higher tunings are certainly viable, you can tune to the same octave as a cello if like. When I ordered the LaBella strings I was unsure if I would like the low C tuning so I got some extra strings in case I decided to tune FCGDAE which starts nearly on the bass guitar's low E and ends exactly on the regular guitar's high E! FCGD could make a nice bass tuning for a short scale. The VIs play pretty much like long scale guitars with their narrow necks and tight string spacings so I still have a lot of getting used to them to do. The low C on a short scale bass seems fine to me however.
Click to expand...


The low C on a short scale doesn't feel too flabby? Even at .120?

And yeah, I've seen the VIs in videos but never in a store. Not sure what the string spacing on a Hofner is, but I'm finding that's pretty optimal for me, and the low gauge strings make for some real nice vibrato (not what you usually think of with a Hof500 but it's pretty cool, like an upright but portable ;-) heh)

Then again, maybe a modified bari guitar (what scale is that, 27"?) could use a 4 string nut and bridge replacement... SO MANY PROJECT IDEAS! And as usual, back to work... this song for Wakko isn't going to track itself...
 
#133
Yeah, thanks for the replys! You can count me in the fifths tuning club. I`m concentrating mainly on learning the double bass but got some strings to my crappy fretless too, I find it beeing a fun and useful tool on learning new music and the fingerboard geography. I started to mess with fifths and tunings in general last summer on db but had to go back to fourths for easy playability since I had a nasty muscle infection issue on my upper back. I got that sorted and am now back in fiths on my new bass. I got there thru some gateways, DADG first, DADA then and finally back to CGDA.

I`ve tried bunch of things on upright, DAEB, the forementioned and Edgar Meyer EBEA. I love the resonance boost, low stuff, clear intonation and the way fiths makes learning stuff a creative process. Now I find the intonation beeing easier with fretless in fifths too.

I quess it`s about how you hear the instrument. For me, since my first attemp to switch, it`s never been the same again. It`s all different animal and sometimes really hard but well worth it!

Reiska
 
#134
The 0.120 gives around 27 pounds of tension when tuned to C. This is light for a bass, 40 pounds is more typical, so I would go heavier if I could on a traditional bass. On the VI the strings are so close together that you cannot really dig in the way you can on a bass, you use a lighter touch anyway and the strings on the VI come in at around 30 pounds from the factory, similar to traditional guitars. A 27 pound C string is not out of place on a VI. You can probably get heavier strings to use on a short scale four or five string bass but you may have to contrive a way to shorten long scale strings since the selection of strings for short scales is limited. I am kicking around the idea of converting my Standard Jazz Fretless to short scale by putting a second bridge on it and removing the saddles from the current bridge. The strings would anchor to the current bridge but the second bridge would have the saddles in the right spot for the scale length, it would be roughly in the spot currently occupied by the bridge pickup. That way I could use long scale strings with it.

I doubt you could tune a 27 inch baritone as low as a C. It would work pretty well, I imagine, tuned to an F or G and of course you could tune it to the cello's C easily enough. I believe Fender (or maybe it is a Squier) is currently selling a 30 inch scale Baritone Jazzmaster that could also be a nice short scale platform to experiment with. You mention converting a VI or a baritone to four strings. I got my VI because the worship band at church needed a guitar player and I thought perhaps I could learn enough to play a few guitar licks now and then since there seemed to be no guitar players to be had, or rather they all only wanted to play acoustic. But since I got the VI they did round up a couple of guitar players and now I don't really need the VI anymore which makes it harder to motivate myself to get really comfortable on it. But it has occurred to me that it might make a nice four or five string short scale bass ... kind of a poor man's Rascal or Rascal V!
 
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#135
I've made a pretty wholesale switch to 4 string basses since the days when I played 5-ers, but every once in a while an opportunity comes up calling for one. So I buy a used 5 and try to utilize them... but just can't get comfortable with them anymore. I like a slim, slender neck, and am dead set on staying with a 1.5" nut. Or smaller. :)

I stumbled across this thread while researching BEAD, which I originally thought might be my solution... And though I haven't read all 7 pages yet, over the past week I've been in and out, and read most of the old thread, and just decided this was the thing to try, instead. I had an order of DR Hi-Beams already en route, and they arrived today, so i strung up my P/J assembly project with the .120, .80, .60, and .40, CGDA.

Initial thoughts--the chording ability is FUN. I play some mandolin and bouzouki, so the 2 and 3 finger chords are already intuitive. I don't usually play many chords on bass (little call for it in my opportunities), but that's about to change. The tonality of the chords in this tuning (or on these strings/at this tension?) is entirely different, and VERY pleasant.

Speaking of tension: on this set on my bass (34" scale) the A is pretty tight, though from my reading not significantly higher-tension than the D string already is. It certainly sings quite well. By comparison, the C and G do feel a little loose, but not distractingly so. I don't play with a pick, and am not a fan of fat strings, so I'm not planning to move up in gauge just yet... I'll see if I really notice the difference between the lower tensions and higher tensions. The strings really sound pretty good, though.

I'm playing bass in the pit for RENT the musical in July, and though I don't have the music yet, I'd worked up the song Santa Fe as an audition piece. Lot's of 1-5-9-11 stretches all OVER the place in this song (it's in B, but the bottom triad of all the arpeggios always sounds kind of modal/B5-ish). It's really a nightmare, though totally possible with the aid of the open D string. Some guys actually tap on it, because that's the trick if you have that skill (I don't). HOWEVER--in 5ths tuning? The entire bass line makes total sense. It's not a reach ANYWHERE, and, in fact, the positions are quite boring comparatively! I'm convinced that the playwright wrote the original line for cello. Convinced. Also, I'm kind of thrilled. :) I'm going to spend a month getting used to it--I don't really play patterns; coming from piano/trombone, I think "notes" almost all the time, so I plan to fall heavily in love with this tuning.

khutch said:
Ooops, this new TB forum software apparently does not allow one to upload xls files so I cannot attach my latest version. If you look elsewhere in this thread you can see an older version of my tension calculator spreadsheet, I guess that is the best I can do for now.
Click to expand...

Ken - can you provide copies of the directions you originally posted with your spreadsheet? I was able to download the document, but the old "how to use" links no longer work. Thanks in advance!

Jeff
 
#136
I think the how to directions was just this post:

If you have some specific questions I can answer them. I can make some general comments now. There are four seven string blocks where you can set up a string choice, scale length, tuning, etc. I made four so that people could compare string selections they may be considering and four fit on my laptop's screen comfortably. Each block has seven string slots because I wanted to make it useful for as many people as possible. I am considering baritone guitars and bass VI guitars right now and some baritones have seven strings. Six string basses are fairly typical. If you are one of the few who has more than seven strings you can use two or more blocks to set up your string choices. There are two columns near the center of the page that are mostly red blocks. Those blocks hide cells where you can enter string by string scale lengths (for multi-scale instruments) or string by sting note selections if your tuning doesn't match any of the standard tunings that you can select from one of the cells in the left hand column. To enable string by string note selection you specify the "Free" tuning option in the tuning cell in the left column. To enable string by string scale length specification type "0" (zero) in the scale length cell in the left column.

Most of the rest you can figure out easily enough by poking around although if you change the value of any cell other than those with a red font you are probably overwriting an important formula. Maybe you want to keep a pristine copy somewhere just in case. Many of the cells are constrained to be pull down lists that call up the string data. Since that copy of the spreadsheet was posted GHS was kind enough to publish tension data for their strings. I have added that to my personal copy of the spreadsheet, if anyone knows how to upload a spreadsheet in this new forum let me know and I will upload it. Too busy this weekend but I will try to remember to figure that out on my own again too. I have slots for every string that Bass Strings Online had available for individual purchase a few years ago but many of those strings had no tension data available so they are flagged as estimates which are based on the numbers for the most similar strings from the few brands that do publish data. That was the best I could do but if the chart says it is an estimate there could be more variation from reality than for other strings. Of course the brands and models of strings that BSO sells today are probably different from when I put the chart together and in some cases string manufacturers have added/dropped models and gauges too so the sheet is neither as accurate nor as complete as it once was. But if you can find a string in the spreadsheet that is close to what you want to use in construction, flat, round, tape, etc you will get some idea of what gauge you should use.
 
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#137
Jeff Elkins said:
I'm playing bass in the pit for RENT the musical in July, and though I don't have the music yet, I'd worked up the song Santa Fe as an audition piece. Lot's of 1-5-9-11 stretches all OVER the place in this song (it's in B, but the bottom triad of all the arpeggios always sounds kind of modal/B5-ish). It's really a nightmare, though totally possible with the aid of the open D string. Some guys actually tap on it, because that's the trick if you have that skill (I don't). HOWEVER--in 5ths tuning? The entire bass line makes total sense. It's not a reach ANYWHERE, and, in fact, the positions are quite boring comparatively! I'm convinced that the playwright wrote the original line for cello. Convinced. Also, I'm kind of thrilled. :) I'm going to spend a month getting used to it--I don't really play patterns; coming from piano/trombone, I think "notes" almost all the time, so I plan to fall heavily in love with this tuning.
Click to expand...

As a cellist, I've never played anything with a low B, but it's certainly possible, tuning down a half step wouldn't damage most instruments, then again I don't have that much pit experience, just Annie and Oz, and I don't think anything was even in C ;-) (mostly F# and Db if I remember correctly... without frets that really means something, though!)

That is exciting to get to try to play other cello music on a bass, though a 34" scale will definitely bring a challenge for some stretches!!!

I wonder how useful it could be to get a super high gauge cello string and tune it FCGD... It would be like a baritone cello or a tenor bass maybe :-)
 
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#140
I have petitioned the forum owners/administrators about allowing spreadsheets to be posted here again. They were before the Great Forum Migration, but not afterwards. I assume this was due to concern over viruses and other malware being distributed by means of macros embedded in Excel files. This is a valid concern, one must be wary of Excel macros. I did get permission to have spreadsheets added to the allowed format list, however there is a catch: you can only post the newer, macro free, .xlsx format spreadsheets. Not a problem if your copy of Excel is new enough to read them otherwise it could be a hassle to find someone who can convert them for you after you download them. You would be doing yourself a favor by updating to a newer version of Excel however since it will warn you when you are about to run a macro and it defaults to not allowing them to be run.

Anyway, for those of you who can use it, here is the latest version of my string tension spreadsheet:
 

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