The Fifths Tuning Club

[Gully Foyle]

Hmmm, I even have one of those basses

 

[ofajen]

I've played electric guitar, Stick and bass for over thirty years. Of course the standard Stick tuning has bass in ascending fifths, opposed to descending fourths in the melody.

Clearly, this has had an effect on my approach to guitar and bass over that time, because I've played both fourths and fifths tunings on bass and played guitar with standard, straight fourths and fifths-based Crafty tuning in roughly equal measure over the years.

I've played the Ripper tuned CGDA, first just detuning a standard set and then with a custom set of 125-90-65-40. The 100 detuned to C actually sounds better, but a heavier string plays better.

Now I'm going to try a lighter set and tune it DAEB. I ordered a 107-80-60-45 set, which can tune EADG if I like, and 55 and 35 singles for tuning DAEB with 107-80-55-35. I'm going to try this on the import Sterling, as well.

Otto

 

[HaroldBarrel]

Hi,

Buying a Tenor Guitar led me to reading about 5ths tuning and the more I read (including this excellent discussion) the more sense it made to me......

Restrung a PRS bass: C 130 G 85 D 65 A 45 - now I have lots of partial string sets left over. An immediate difference with the PRS is that the intonation is now much better through the range of the instrument - before I would tune to the area where I would mostly play for the song/set. The tone is improved - the PRS Bass is from my experience very much a one trick pony and voiced very deep - now it has to my ears a richer tone - but worth the change for the intonation improvements alone.

I have switched my 5 string now as well: C 130 (will be 135 soon) G 85 (will be 90) D 60 A 40 E 28w (was 20p but it felt too skinny) (will be 25 soon).

I tried to keep the overall tension similar to the standard tuning sets that were on, to save me time adjusting the truss rod - seems to have worked so far.

Back in the shed with Ed F Building Walking Bass Lines - but this time CGDA!

Great discussion - I learned a lot here - especially about string tension and string gauges.

Thanks

Neil

 

[Matthew_84]

@khutch I'm looking I get a fretless 5'er and tuning it to CGDAE like you have done.

I'm a bit worried the E string will sound REALLY twangy. I even find C strings on a 34" scale 6 string bass to be a little too twangy...

Have you noticed this? If so, do you correct it by using a shorter scale than 34", a warmer E string than the rest of the set, altering your technique on the E string, or is it just careful gauge selection?

 

[khutch]

Actually, I just embrace it. The upper string and indeed the upper notes on several strings come out sounding a bit guitar-like and I just use the difference as an artistic tool rather than trying to eliminate it. So, I don't know what you can do to eliminate it. It is possible you might be able to do something with string gauge to help or potentially you can try using a completely different string type for that upper string. If the bottom four are rounds then maybe a flat or half round or pressure wound string will kill the twang enough to satisfy you. I also have a Squier VI tuned CGDAEB. It has a 30 inch scale and its B string is tuned to the same B as a normal guitar's B string so when I play up the neck and on the high strings of that instrument it basically becomes a guitar. I look at that as a feature but I understand that a lot of bassists recoil from that in horror and I wish I could offer more advice. I would suppose the people who play seven and more string basses also have to deal with this issue. It seems to have been dormant recently but there is an extended range bass club here on TB and if you can find the thread in a search you might find some wisdom on this topic shared there.

If you want to explore your options before paying for a new fiver you can tune any of your fours to GDAE and experiment with strings to see what you need to do to "tame" the E string. You can even look at shorter scales this way. You can get a medium scale by putting a capo on the first fret and a short scale by capoing at the second fret. Either way you just retune to GDAE and experiment with strings again. Good luck!

BTW, the guitar-like range of my Squier VI would be much more of a feature if I could actually play guitar well!!

 

[Matthew_84]

Actually, I just embrace it. The upper string and indeed the upper notes on several strings come out sounding a bit guitar-like and I just use the difference as an artistic tool rather than trying to eliminate it. So, I don't know what you can do to eliminate it. It is possible you might be able to do something with string gauge to help or potentially you can try using a completely different string type for that upper string. If the bottom four are rounds then maybe a flat or half round or pressure wound string will kill the twang enough to satisfy you. I also have a Squier VI tuned CGDAEB. It has a 30 inch scale and its B string is tuned to the same B as a normal guitar's B string so when I play up the neck and on the high strings of that instrument it basically becomes a guitar. I look at that as a feature but I understand that a lot of bassists recoil from that in horror and I wish I could offer more advice. I would suppose the people who play seven and more string basses also have to deal with this issue. It seems to have been dormant recently but there is an extended range bass club here on TB and if you can find the thread in a search you might find some wisdom on this topic shared there.

If you want to explore your options before paying for a new fiver you can tune any of your fours to GDAE and experiment with strings to see what you need to do to "tame" the E string. You can even look at shorter scales this way. You can get a medium scale by putting a capo on the first fret and a short scale by capoing at the second fret. Either way you just retune to GDAE and experiment with strings again. Good luck!

BTW, the guitar-like range of my Squier VI would be much more of a feature if I could actually play guitar well!!

Thanks! Stringing my 4 banger up to GDAE is a pretty good idea! I will certainly try this out.

 

[jharms80439]

Sub'd.

Tried Fifths tuning ~15 years ago, even exchanged emails with Dennis Masuzzo a couple of times for help after buying his book. At the time, I just couldn't get it - likely my music knowledge wasn't enough at the time.

Wow, what a difference (quite) a few years makes.

A few weeks ago, I strung up two 6'ers- fretted and fretless, both are Tom Clement's Phoenix models, and my upright - all in fifths tuning. Had most of the strings on hand to make it work. Haven't swapped out strings on my 4 or 7 yet, but soon I plan on it soon!

I find that after tuning in fifths, my approach to playing music is very different now. Root, 5th, b7, 7 & 8 are easy peasy. 3rds are tougher (as are many of the flattened varieties), but all are doable. My note approach is more chromatic (and melodic?) and I find myself not jumping around to find musical notes like I used to do. (And) Yes, I shift positions more, but it's not awful, and no, I'm not stretching uncomfortably, just pivoting/rolling on my thumb more (good thing I studied Rabbath's method on upright!).

Currently, I'm still working to learn the fingerlings for the songs I know. I notice that my tone/sound is clear and full - sounds better than when tuned in fourths. Need to watch sympathetic string ringing much more than I used to though. Oh and slapping isnt intuitive like when I tuned in fourths - but I'm getting better there too.

Right now, I'm primarily working scales & modes, a few classical cello pieces, and old rock/pop songs that I learned a long long time ago.

Playing and practicing are fun again! Now I'm back to practicing.



John

 

[jharms80439]

@Matthew_84,

FWIW, I'm using a LaBella DTF (flats) high C string, oh and it stretched to E, on my my fretless 6 (TUNE VERY SLOWLY THOUGH). It was a pretty old/dead string though and tuned to E, it's not twangy at all. Nice tone for octaves, 9ths & 10ths and has a terrific fundamental.

On my fretted (with rounds), there are still lots of harmonics/overtones with the fundamental note (round wound high C as the high E). On the fretless, much more of the fundamental comes through. As always YMMV and raise the pitch sloooowwwwllllyy to keep from breaking strings.

If you get ambitious, and try a 6'er, I used a .018 plain for the highest B string (on fretless and a .019 on my fretted) that is until my new set with .014's arrive from Kalium Strings. FYI, it's pretty high tension, but works very well on both basses

Good luck!

John

 

[Reiska]

Hi you all 5ths heads! A quick question here about string tension balance, I`m planning to order flats for my fretless. Strings would be D`addario Chromes, C 132, G 90, D 65, A 40. Bass is a fretless P, 34" scale lenght. Does this set sound balanced enough, what`s your experience with flats?

Many thanks in advance, Reiska

 

[pklima]

With Chromes, I use 132, 90, 60, 40 and that works out fine. 65 would be mathematically a slightly less equal ratio between the G and D:A, but probably completely fine in real life.

 

[SteveCS]

I've played electric guitar, Stick and bass for over thirty years. Of course the standard Stick tuning has bass in ascending fifths, opposed to descending fourths in the melody.

Clearly, this has had an effect on my approach to guitar and bass over that time, because I've played both fourths and fifths tunings on bass and played guitar with standard, straight fourths and fifths-based Crafty tuning in roughly equal measure over the years.

I've played the Ripper tuned CGDA, first just detuning a standard set and then with a custom set of 125-90-65-40. The 100 detuned to C actually sounds better, but a heavier string plays better.

Now I'm going to try a lighter set and tune it DAEB. I ordered a 107-80-60-45 set, which can tune EADG if I like, and 55 and 35 singles for tuning DAEB with 107-80-55-35. I'm going to try this on the import Sterling, as well.

Otto

Hey Otto - do you tune the Stick Melody in NST, straight 5ths tuned down a bit or do you just leave it in 4ths? I remember trying to get the high G and burning through about 6 new 1sts in about an hour before going back to standard 4ths (F#-D) where I've remained ever since.

 

[Reiska]

With Chromes, I use 132, 90, 60, 40 and that works out fine. 65 would be mathematically a slightly less equal ratio between the G and D:A, but probably completely fine in real life.

Thanks pklima, great, first hand experience! This is the strenght of TB! Actually the D is what I`m worried about the most, but I might order 60 gauge as I have a Chromes 65 in my stash already.

 

[pklima]

A decade of experience, ha. I have two sets of Chromes like that, one is more than 10 years old now.

 

[Reiska]

Yeah, that`s one more reason to love flatwounds, as they last forever. Spirocores of BG world, so to speak

 

[pklima]

Yeah, my Spirocores are still in their youth, maybe six or seven years?

 

[Reiska]

 

[ofajen]

Hey Otto - do you tune the Stick Melody in NST, straight 5ths tuned down a bit or do you just leave it in 4ths? I remember trying to get the high G and burning through about 6 new 1sts in about an hour before going back to standard 4ths (F#-D) where I've remained ever since.

I always tuned melody in fourths. I started out with the standard tuning and later shifted to matched reciprocal (down a whole step) to give a little more room between hands.

Otto

 

[Frenchy-Lefty]

I don't tune in 5th but I have always thought it is such a great way to extend the range of a 4 string bass. It is an old thread but I love how it all started with the usual responses of musically uneducated trolls then took off with peeps who know about music.

 

[jharms80439]

Pic of the girls. All in fifths!

John

 

[~M.o.M~]

You have my attention!
I'm very interested to know how your girls are tuned. Especially that 7 string one...