The Fifths Tuning Club

[jharms80439]

~M.o.M~,

The Conklin has a Kalium .222 low F, so I could get a low B or low A below the .142 low C. Pipe organ style pedal notes are soooo fun.

TI Jazz Flats are on the Stingray. DR Blues Nickels are on the Urge II. Kalium's are on the Tom Clement Fretted, and the fretless Tom Clement wears LaBella DTF 1954's (C, G, D), DTF FL (A & C), Kalium .018 (plain) for the high E.

Low C (Spirocore) on the upright doesn't speak that great (Pizz), so a trip to Bob Ross is likely in order for a sound post adjustment. Arco on the C is HUGE though! F# solo (also Spirocore) tuned to G speaks pretty strongly too. D & A sound terrific too.

Electrics go through my pedal board and into an Orange BT1000 with 12AU7's (rolled tubes for warmth & clarity) and out through a BareFaced BB2.

Upright goes through a Rev Solo & Troll mic, PreSonis tube preamp, FDeck to keep the lows under control and into PJB Bass Cub or the Orange - depending on volume needs.

John

 

[TapyTap]

Does anyone tune CGDA on a scale length greater than 34"? I am seriously contemplating a 35" or 36" scale length.

 

[Michael Eisenman]

Does anyone tune CGDA on a scale length greater than 34"? I am seriously contemplating a 35" or 36" scale length.

Some double bass players do, and their necks are more like 42". Of course the technique is different.

 

[TapyTap]

Some double bass players do, and their necks are more like 42". Of course the technique is different.

True. Specifically, I'm speaking of something in the electric bass "guitar" camp.

 

[jharms80439]

TapyTap,

Not sure why you would want to go longer than a 34" scale on bass guitar tuned in fifths. A Kalium .0142" low C sounds terrific. I have "largish" hands and I still use the Rabbath style pivot a bunch along with plenty of slides. (And) I use the Rabbath pivot on my upright at a 41.5" scale too.

In fifths tuning on BG, I find that my hands cramp just a bit less than when tuned in fourths - perhaps because me moving around a bit more (think pivots) helps me not cramp up more than playing across the strings in one position..? In fifths (again IMHO), I play a bit more relaxed and at the end of a session, my hands/forearms aren't as wasted after playing for a few hours as they used to be when playing across the strings in fourths and on my 6'ers.

If I need to go lower than C1, I can go to F0 on my 7 string - but I truly don't have a need to even grab a low B(1) or low C(1) that much - pretty much low D(1) is about it for the stuff I play - though I do get to have fun with pedal notes on the 7 string.

So...with the multitude of custom strings available for CGDA tuning, why are you thinking about a 35" or 36" scale? Do you already own one for the retuning?

John

P.S. I put together a quickie chart for use on my 6'ers when I went to fifths tuning again - it's attached and (please) don't flame me too bad if there are any errors - just let me know and I'll fix them.

P.S.S As for scale length, it's ~1/4" to ~1/2" additional stretch at the low end with one fret per finger - less of course at the high end. Not sure if I'd like the stretch of 5 frets on a 35" or 36" bass which I can do on a 34" scale (again with a pivot).

 

[TapyTap]

So...with the multitude of custom strings available for CGDA tuning, why are you thinking about a 35" or 36" scale? Do you already own one for the retuning?

Thank you for your thoughts John. I do not currently own an instrument with a scale length over 34", but I have in the past...a 5-string Dingwall (BEADG tuning). The 37" scale B-string was wonderful in the tension/tone department!

While I also have used Kalium strings to put together sets for 34" and even various 32" scale custom tunings, I am reminded of my experience with that 37" B. CGDA tuning can certainly work fine on a 34" scale instrument, I simply prefer the timbre of a thinner C-string over a larger diameter C. Also, I lean toward a higher string tension than the 34" scale will allow (with a thinner string, that is). Since physics dictates that I must have a longer scale length in order to achieve a thinner string with a higher tension, I am forced to go with a longer scale length for that C1 pitch.

P.S.S As for scale length, it's ~1/4" to ~1/2" additional stretch at the low end with one fret per finger - less of course at the high end. Not sure if I'd like the stretch of 5 frets on a 35" or 36" bass which I can do on a 34" scale (again with a pivot).

Indeed, pivoting is my friend with the contracello tuning.

The difference in distance between the first and second fret on a 35" scale instrument and a 34" scale instrument is less than 1/16" (0.054" to be exact). Between a 36" and 34" scale, the difference in distance is less than 7/64" (.106" exactly). If the 36" and 34" scale instruments are lined up next to each other at the 12th fret, it is only 1" more of a stretch in total from the 12th fret to the nut on the 36" scale instrument over the 34" scale instrument.

The more I type this, the more I think I'm talking myself into going with the longer scale length.

 

[SteveCS]

Thank you for your thoughts John. I do not currently own an instrument with a scale length over 34", but I have in the past...a 5-string Dingwall (BEADG tuning). The 37" scale B-string was wonderful in the tension/tone department!

While I also have used Kalium strings to put together sets for 34" and even various 32" scale custom tunings, I am reminded of my experience with that 37" B. CGDA tuning can certainly work fine on a 34" scale instrument, I simply prefer the timbre of a thinner C-string over a larger diameter C. Also, I lean toward a higher string tension than the 34" scale will allow (with a thinner string, that is). Since physics dictates that I must have a longer scale length in order to achieve a thinner string with a higher tension, I am forced to go with a longer scale length for that C1 pitch.



Indeed, pivoting is my friend with the contracello tuning.

The difference in distance between the first and second fret on a 35" scale instrument and a 34" scale instrument is less than 1/16" (0.054" to be exact). Between a 36" and 34" scale, the difference in distance is less than 7/64" (.106" exactly). If the 36" and 34" scale instruments are lined up next to each other at the 12th fret, it is only 1" more of a stretch in total from the 12th fret to the nut on the 36" scale instrument over the 34" scale instrument.

The more I type this, the more I think I'm talking myself into going with the longer scale length.

So why not go back to the fanned fret idea - surely ideally suited to achieving tonal balance in 5ths tuning?

 

[TapyTap]

So why not go back to the fanned fret idea - surely ideally suited to achieving tonal balance in 5ths tuning?

This has certainly been a consideration. As you say, an instrument with multiple scale lengths could work particularly well on a 5ths tuned instrument. However, I prefer to keep it a uniform scale length for chordal work in certain positions. It's always a compromise when it comes to stringed instruments...

 

[SteveCS]

This has certainly been a consideration. As you say, an instrument with multiple scale lengths could work particularly well on a 5ths tuned instrument. However, I prefer to keep it a uniform scale length for chordal work in certain positions. It's always a compromise when it comes to stringed instruments...

Yes, I can see that. I tried multiple scale and found the same thing when playing double stops and compound intervals - just too many variables. In some positions the compound m10 is ahead of the root and in others behind it which amounts to different fingerings for each position. I'm sure with time it could be learned but I'm a bit long in the tooth to start over...

 

[jharms80439]

TapyTap,

I hadn't even considered a fan fret option for a thinner C1 as that's an option that I've never gone before.

I have TI Spirocore Medium C1 (4/4) on my upright and to get adequate open C volume, I have to raise the bridge - which makes it more "interesting" to play non-amped. On my fretless 4 (MM Stingray), I have TI Jazz Flats .136 B string as my C string. It "sounds" good, but not "terrific" as I'd hoped - so I see your point on a thinner C and a longer scale - that may be a great solution whether you go with fanned frets or a longer scale. For me, I ended up standardizing on 34" scales as I play fretless too - and even switching between 34" fretless and a 35" fretted (had a Modulus for a while), it took a toll on my fretless intonation. So now I'm 34" only - except for uprights - again YMMV in traversing scale lengths of fanned, fretted and fretless - but I couldn't do it.

Thanks as well for the correction on the fret distance. I was thinking on a relative stretch position of increased length overall between the ends of the pivot and not fret to fret. Good call on the clarification - my bad for mucking it up.

John

 

[TapyTap]

Yes, I can see that. I tried multiple scale and found the same thing when playing double stops and compound intervals - just too many variables. In some positions the compound m10 is ahead of the root and in others behind it which amounts to different fingerings for each position. I'm sure with time it could be learned but I'm a bit long in the tooth to start over...

I'm of the opinion that the "fanning" of the frets does not have to be as extreme as something like a Dingwall bass to achieve the benefits of an instrument with multiple scale lengths. However, the fingering patterns will certainly be more exaggerated in certain positions compared to said locations on an instrument with a single scale length. Then again, some positions will be more natural, ergonomically speaking. No doubt you would adjust in time...heck, you play a Chapman Stick! Come to think of it, I'm surprised Emmet hasn't gone the multi-scale route.

TapyTap,

I hadn't even considered a fan fret option for a thinner C1 as that's an option that I've never gone before.

If you are willing to go that direction, I agree with SteveCS that the multi-scale route could really benefit a 5ths tuned instrument with its tension/timbre balance.

I have TI Spirocore Medium C1 (4/4) on my upright and to get adequate open C volume, I have to raise the bridge - which makes it more "interesting" to play non-amped.

Ha ha ha..."more 'interesting'" is a great description.

On my fretless 4 (MM Stingray), I have TI Jazz Flats .136 B string as my C string. It "sounds" good, but not "terrific" as I'd hoped - so I see your point on a thinner C and a longer scale - that may be a great solution whether you go with fanned frets or a longer scale. For me, I ended up standardizing on 34" scales as I play fretless too - and even switching between 34" fretless and a 35" fretted (had a Modulus for a while), it took a toll on my fretless intonation. So now I'm 34" only - except for uprights - again YMMV in traversing scale lengths of fanned, fretted and fretless - but I couldn't do it.

If I switched back and forth between fretted and fretless, I would be inclined to stick with a single scale length on all of my basses.

Thanks as well for the correction on the fret distance. I was thinking on a relative stretch position of increased length overall between the ends of the pivot and not fret to fret. Good call on the clarification - my bad for mucking it up.

John

Don't even worry yourself about it. I figured that was what you were saying. I only wrote what I did as a matter of clarifying my perspective. Plus, I wanted to investigate the matter a bit further and was pleasantly surprised by what I discovered. Very interesting stuff...just had to share it.

 

[pklima]

Does anyone tune CGDA on a scale length greater than 34"? I am seriously contemplating a 35" or 36" scale length.

35" on the bass in my avatar. Doesn't seem to be a big deal, but I also tune in fifths on DB, so 35" still feels pretty short.

 

[Will_White]

So for those that switch between fourths and fifths tuning how does that work for you?

 

[TapyTap]

35" on the bass in my avatar. Doesn't seem to be a big deal, but I also tune in fifths on DB, so 35" still feels pretty short.

Cool, that's encouraging....and simultaneously rather funny. Here I am concerned about adding an inch or two to my current scale length, while you are going "short scale" by playing a 35" electric. I think you have just made up my mind with your answer.

So for those that switch between fourths and fifths tuning how does that work for you?

I have now switched back and forth between the two tunings so many times that they both feel equally familiar to me upon the switch. Once I play either one for a few seconds, everything else just falls into place.

 

[jharms80439]

Is anyone using Black Nylon Tapewounds with Fifths tuning? I've had two LaBella DTF G (760N) strings fail when tuning the G to A.

Bass is a EBMM Stingray 4 fretless.

John

 

[jharms80439]

Things that make you go Hmmmm.

Must have been a couple of bad strings. Tried a third G tuned up to A and it held fine. Played a couple of hours and reinstalled the TI Jazz Flats. The 760-N B tuned to C is much better than the TI though. Bad news is the the Nylon B doesn't pair well with the TI's. Oh well it was worth a shot...

John

 

[jharms80439]

Just thinking here...

Has anyone (currently tuning in fifths) noticed that they are using their 4 stringers more than their 5/6 string basses? I have two terrific 6 string basses from Tom Clement and I've noticed that my 4's are getting much more love lately...

Both of my 6's are tuned in fifths and I really dig the high E & B strings on my fretless. It really gets that super high thumb position upright tone easily and sounds stellar doing it. But my Fender Urge II in fifths sounds awesome and covers >95+% of what I play.

So, what do you think - for us in fifths tuning - are 5/6 (or 7's) string basses dead?

John

 

[pklima]

I've certainly lost interest in buying 5+ string basses.

 

[jharms80439]

Just sold my EBMM Stingray (Thanks @jks!) as I couldn't get comfy with the neck and I'm looking to build a Fender P/J style bass (4 string) next - of course strung up in fifths tuning too. Tom Clement built both of my 6'ers and I'll likely have him build a couple of fretted/fretless basses for me.

I'm thinking a mahogany chambered body with a flame maple top, wenge P width neck and ebony 24 (fret) fretless fingerboard. Passive Fender '62 vintage pickups for the P. Not sure on the J pickup though. I have Dimarzio ultra jazz's on hand, but may go with Fralin's. It'll be a fun project to design over the winter months and "should" keep me out of trouble too.

John

 

[JLW]

I've been having a real issue lately with trying to get more range out of my bass, but not being too keen on switching to 5 string basses. I want to get a bit more of a melodic touch for certain arrangements, and from what I understand, this may be the way to go. I think I'm going to try out some DAEB tuning (with the D being a whole step below the standard low E on a 4 string) and I'll report back with my findings.

My main interest is in how much of a problem it will be not being able to reach those thirds easily. Playing any sort of chord with a 3rd in it will be tough, or maybe even impossible in some cases.