The First 7 String Electric Bass

[JAUQO III-X]

Hey! Fella's check out my new Thread

Larry Graham or Louis Johnson

 

[john turner]

i've reopened this thread because of a few requests, but consider this a warning, any personal attacks will be met with a strident response.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Here's my pvt msg to JT when he closed this thread. Thanks JT for opening it up again. I will be to the point and hopefully short !!


KSB - Ken Smith wrote on 12-13-2003 05:08 PM:
John, now that my name and rep. has been smeared in public, how can I respond here if you have closed the thread. Please give me some ideas.
BTW, I didn't even own a 35mm camera back then and never discussed a 7 with anyone till Melvin Davis in '92. I would like to see his pics as well. He did order a 4 string thru a dealer back then and the pics or letters if any could be about that since his letters from his description do not even mention a 7 string.

Awaiting your reply..... Ken Smith


It's easy for someone to come up here and say things that can’t be defended. If there is any truth in it at all, why did he wait 22 years to mention it? Yes... 22 Years....

My memory is fine and I did not forget anything except maybe what I had for breakfast that day...
Either Scrambled eggs or Bacon n egg on a roll !!!

I was a successful NY studio musician in those days and funded my company with my own money from Sessions, Jingles, Residuals, B'way shows and all sorts of gigs not to mention teaching. I taught some 450 people in a 10-15 year period privately in my apartment/studio. The same place I did all my assembly and setups for the first 8 years of my business.
I didn't need and would never steal anyone’s money. The truth and my 25-year business reputation precedes me.

I will keep you all informed of any progress in the matter.

Oh, and to the actual post, (ok JT?) I don't know who 'MADE' the first 7-String Bass (the actual topic and not who played it!) but I can say this on the subject; I was once taught that in 'Fame' of something the most prolific is the 'First' and the 'Best'.

First is a matter of fact or history if it can be proven. Best is a matter of 'Taste' and 'Opinion'. I was not at all the first as we made our first 7 around 1993 but we did try our best to please a very talented artist, Melvin Davis'. It's guys like Melvin that makes builders like us 'reach for the sky'........ Later.....

 

[Wolfehollow]

Originally posted by warwickben
for some reason, that pic with jt and the two othere guys(not sure who u are) scares me. it reminds me of some thing u would see in a mob movie.lol any one else


so when is some one going to build a 14 string (doubled)bass or a 21.

I sort of felt that way when I was holding those deadly weapons in a parking garage... It was extremely nice of JT to walk us out there and let us check them out... Im the guy with the hat.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by mcbassdude
Brad, why do you insist on continuing to insult my intellegence. I don't recall disputing your ability to read or comprehend. I haven't hurled innuendo or insults at you. I've simply been engaged in a discussion.

I'm insulting your intelligence? Please.

People are talking to you in very plain English and you seem bent on either misinterpreting what they say or just flat out ignoring it. If anyone is insulting your intelligence it's you. Sorry.

What you repeatedly have done is complain about Garry being disrespected in responses to me. If you used that intelligence you say I'm insulting you'd see that I've neither disrespected Garry or insulted him. It's insulting that you keep trying to misrepresent what I'm doing.

All I've asked for is to show some respect. What have I done to you sir to warrant these attacks on my ability to read or comprehend or to hold my opinion's?

Like I said you keep harping on respect to me when I've shown nothing but respect for Garry. I've even asked for both of you to show me examples in this thread of the disrespect... and I'm still waiting.

You OTOH come of like some whining second who is just going to keep whining facts be damned. If you aren't talking specifically to me about respect, quit talking to me specifically about respect. That should be simple enough yet this keeps dragging on and on.

I am not Garry, My name is Joe and I don't play a 7 string. I don't claim to have thought of or invented anything, yet because I hold my position and am not swayed by your insulting retorts you continue to disrespect me.
I think Garry is brilliant and I think he came up with the 7 first, Do I agree with every word or statement Garry makes? No
I'm getting so tired of arguing semantics with you.

Then stop. As long as you keep coming back at me with this nonsense you can expect more of the same. If you find it insulting imagine how the people that are actually reading the words and understand them feel while watching you twist them. I'm not the only one who has tried to explain the one minor problem in this thread and yet you're still oblivious.

So please I implore you to stop leveling assaults on my charachter or intellegence and we, You, Garry, all of us, try to keep what is left of this discussion above board?
You want to continue to argue not being able to prove who "thought" of it first well you know what you can't prove he didn't THINK of it first, none of us can. You can't prove either way if Larry Graham thought about slapping first. It's like arguing what came first the Chicken or the Egg. Pointless.

Obviously you'll never get it. No surprise there.

However the question at hand, who came up with the first and who has played it the longest, seems to have been answered and it would appear to be Garry.

I haven't been discussing that part of this thread... why continue to try and involve me in it?

So Brad if it makes you feel better, you win, he didn't THINK of it first, he just developed it 10 years before anyone else did, he just played it out since '78 giving him a 10 year head start.

Keep it civil
Peace

How can you say that? You can't prove he didn't THINK of it first, none of us can.

 

[Garry Goodman]

Originally posted by KSB - Ken Smith
Here's my pvt msg to JT when he closed this thread. Thanks JT for opening it up again. I will be to the point and hopefully short !!


KSB - Ken Smith wrote on 12-13-2003 05:08 PM:
John, now that my name and rep. has been smeared in public, how can I respond here if you have closed the thread. Please give me some ideas.
BTW, I didn't even own a 35mm camera back then and never discussed a 7 with anyone till Melvin Davis in '92. I would like to see his pics as well. He did order a 4 string thru a dealer back then and the pics or letters if any could be about that since his letters from his description do not even mention a 7 string.

Awaiting your reply..... Ken Smith


It's easy for someone to come up here and say things that can’t be defended. If there is any truth in it at all, why did he wait 22 years to mention it? Yes... 22 Years....

My memory is fine and I did not forget anything except maybe what I had for breakfast that day...
Either Scrambled eggs or Bacon n egg on a roll !!!

I was a successful NY studio musician in those days and funded my company with my own money from Sessions, Jingles, Residuals, B'way shows and all sorts of gigs not to mention teaching. I taught some 450 people in a 10-15 year period privately in my apartment/studio. The same place I did all my assembly and setups for the first 8 years of my business.
I didn't need and would never steal anyone’s money. The truth and my 25-year business reputation precedes me.

I will keep you all informed of any progress in the matter.

Oh, and to the actual post, (ok JT?) I don't know who 'MADE' the first 7-String Bass (the actual topic and not who played it!) but I can say this on the subject; I was once taught that in 'Fame' of something the most prolific is the 'First' and the 'Best'.

First is a matter of fact or history if it can be proven. Best is a matter of 'Taste' and 'Opinion'. I was not at all the first as we made our first 7 around 1993 but we did try our best to please a very talented artist, Melvin Davis'. It's guys like Melvin that makes builders like us 'reach for the sky'........ Later.....

Ken ,i thought we were going to keep this a private matter. I really was hoping it wouldn't come to this.

First ,i am hoping you are not suggesting I slandered you in any way or "smeared your name'. I have a copy of our emails. I've been nothing but complimentary. You were in fact the first luthier to start a 7 string bass.

I am not the one who said 'you ripped me off'. I never asked you for money back , even after you offered to refund it years ago.

I mentioned you starting a bass for me ,and you did , because it was part of the answer to the question asked at the top of this thread . The four string I bought ,serial # 099 was hanging in a store ,Easy Music in Hawaii. I bought it because I got there before my basses ,and need a bass. You make great basses.

I guess this post of yours means you want me to post my documentation ,on here publicly ,before you have a chance to see it .
I brought up the bass you started for historical reasons . I never implied you did anything wrong to me. Why 22 years what? That's when I ordered the bass ,tha't why.

What's gonna happen when those photos and letters with your hand writing appears on this thread. Should we do a handwriting analysis ? The wood on the body in the photos,clearly your body design,is different than Smith pas ii,serial #099.

I purchased that bass,listing @ $2400 ,for $1800 . I will post photos of that bass ,front and back as well.

On the back of a photo you sent me in 1982 ,you wrote you needed about $ 2000 just for a deposit. Did you normally charge a $2000 deposit in 1982 ? If it was for the four string ,made from a different piece of wood , that i bought in 1984 and have receipts for ,why would you need a deposit in 1982?



I sent you an email with the content of a letter you sent me in 1982. You emailed back ,"OK .but where do I refer to a 7 string' ? " So right there,you went from saying i never ordered from you ,no record of my name- to an "ok"., but,,,"


Did you in fact use order numbers in 1982 ? On the back of one photo ,in your hand writng it reads order # 052

You take a custom order for a bass ,don't keep a record of it ,and don't write down on the order what kind of bass you are building. I am hoping you have a record of order # 051 and #053. Who order was #052 in March of 1982.?

You told me you didn't own a 35 mm then. I can tell you the photos are very clear. I don't know if it's 35 mm ,I guessed.

Do you have photos of your shop in 1982? we should be able to identify the wood bench you set the Bass wood on in the photos

On the back of one of the photos you wrote "received your check , I'll send you one big receipt when the deposit is paid in full( about $2000)., thanks,Ken" Can you verify your hand writing when you see these notes ?


Now a little while later ,you called me and told me you couldn't build a 7 string. Where did the bass you were working on in the photosend up ? Why would you send me photos and write these things on the back of them if I never ordered the bass from you?
in your last email it went from having no record, no deposit no anything to " ok ,but where do I refer to a 7 string bass ? "

Well ,it should be on your order for the bass. we talked about it,you took the order ,accepted the momey orders that have 7 string dep.written on them. I have more photos and i am looking for a letter from you talking about the string spacing on the 7 string. When I findit ,i'll post it up on Talk Bass.

The other point i made in my email to you is that in 1982 i owned a half dozen 6 strings ,8 strings , 5 strings and 4 strings. I approached you to make a 7 string,and had you said you couldn't ,as several other luthiers did , i would have never sent you a deposit. i would have kept searching. i did ,and came across Tobias at the end of 1986.


You even gave a bassistt i know a message to give me that you still had my deposit ,did i want a 6 string or my money back? That was 1986. i didn't want a six string bass,i wanted a 7.

You see I am not interested in the money ,and no one can pre date Tobias 7 string # 975 from 1987 ,so that takes care of that aspect .

Even if I order a 3 string bass in 1982 ,why do you insist you never received money from me , that there are no records of my deposit or order #052 and try to make me look like a liar ?? Talk about slander ! All the photos ,front and back,letter ,money order etc. will be scanned and availablr for anyone to see.

Ken, i have done nothing wrong to you ,and it is uncalled for to make the comment you have post after all our correspondence.
. I am sorry you chose to go this route. I do not take this personally and think you are an ok guy and make great basses. I don't like being told to apologize for something you do not or do not want to remember.,or have no record of..


Can someone tell me how to post photos on this thread ?

 

[Wolfehollow]

...at the bottom of a reply there is a "attach file" option. Hit browse and locate the picture on your hard drive. It will then load that to talkbass and there will be a link. There is a size limit...

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Ninestring/Gary....... The ONLY reason we are out here with this is because you said in "PUBLIC" that I took a deposit from you in 1981 ( now you claim it was 1982. Make up your mind!!) and never gave you anything for it.

My method of doing something 'NEW' as can be attested by my history is to Source or Make the special parts such as Pickups and Bridges before even thinking of the Wood. You can cut Wood to any size you like but you cant cut&paste Bridge or Pickup pieces for a Custom or Wider Spacing.
When I made the Bass for Anthony, I ordered 2 custom Bridges and Two sets of Custom Pickup Coil sets(we made the covers in wood) made from two different suppliers way in advance of cutting the Wood. We Ran two of the Necks just in case something went wrong with one of them.
I would have done the same for a 7 from (as I did '12' years later when I made Melvin's Basses) sourcing the parts to making the necks AND I would have remembered it as well!!
I was 'NOT'...... and I repeat 'NOT' the first builder to start a 7-String.
I don't know what the alleged deposit was for , but it was not to build a 7-string.
I do have photos of my shop from back then and can tell if it's MY Handwriting. The shop was in Brooklyn then. I also have, as I had mentioned in one of my emails to you, my original 'log' book or all business transactions for payments for sales and deposits from 1979 up until we got the computer in '89........
Your name does NOT appear in the book anywhere!! I wonder why that is?

When I Finally and Hopefully get to see your pictures and reciepts, I will tell you(and TB) what I think they are.

Do you know that I typed this entire reply without looking back at your post one time. Rembering all that you mentioned !!!!!!!
Now I will look back and see if I've missed anything and then I'll spellcheck.

Oh , ok.... 'Order #s'....... I never used order numbers back then or even now.
I used serial #s and 51,52,53 were all 4-string Bass serial #s.

I just used to write the order down and stamp the # in the Bass in several places when it was done several months later. My reciepts did have numbers but was not used as the order number.

Now, we just use production #s when we start the Bass but when we take the order, we STILL DON'T use an order#. It's just not me I guess. Too many numbers.....Try the cable company... they use numbers for all thier job orders I think...lol

Time for breakfast....... Bye for now....

 

[Garry Goodman]

This is good ! I am glad we can discuss this as friends without animosity .

You did offer the deposit back,.I never asked you for anything for the money.

I am hoping today I can get the items scanned and large enough to see and read on here .


Now this becomes somewhat of a mystery ,and hopefully we will find out what happened.

I will say again that the only reason I contacted Ken Smith in late 1981 was for the sole purpose of having a 7 string bass built .because the make shift ones i was playing didn't work correctly ..

Ken we will have to get your take on your notes i post. Maybe we can figure out what this was.

Once again to anyone reading this:

I have great respect for Ken Smith and his basses. We are talking about an issue that goes back over 20 years. Due to the nature of threads and posts ,there may be something we are missing that would otherwise resolve this. I in no way slandered or "smaeared" Ken's name at any time.


I am hoping to establish that business did take place between Ken and myself around late 1981 to early 1982. I do keep records myself ,so i am still looking for additional documentation .I am contacting some people who remember the bass in question and spoke with both Ken and I.

I'll get the stuff up by Tuesday.

 

[temp5897]

Originally posted by Ninestring
I will say again that the only reason I contacted Ken Smith in late 1981 was for the sole purpose of having a 7 string bass built .because the make shift ones i was playing didn't work correctly ..

I am really confused here Garry. I am seeing you claim different things in all your posts here. First you said 1981 and then 1982 as Ken said...then you are talking about getting "EMAILS" from Ken in the early 80's?! Please tell me you are just confusing terminology here...

About the deposit, was it 400 dollars or 2000? At first you made it sound like he kept it by saying "he still has my deposit" as if Ken wasn't being honest about the whole deal, and then you post that he offered to refund it. If that is the case why would you make it sound like he kept it on purpose? I, honestly, just don't get it.

Also, if you had the first seven built, how on earth did you have "makeshift" sevens before it was built? Who made these? Did you help "develop" them? Where did you get the bridges for them etc? I am totally confused...I am seriously not trying to be a jerk and say you aren't being consistent but this all intrigues me and I am just confused as he[ck] right now over the things that you are saying.

 

[PhatBasstard]

Originally posted by Jared Morante
I am really confused here Garry. I am seeing you claim different things in all your posts here. First you said 1981 and then 1982 as Ken said...then you are talking about getting "EMAILS" from Ken in the early 80's?! Please tell me you are just confusing terminology here...

About the deposit, was it 400 dollars or 2000? At first you made it sound like he kept it by saying "he still has my deposit" as if Ken wasn't being honest about the whole deal, and then you post that he offered to refund it. If that is the case why would you make it sound like he kept it on purpose? I, honestly, just don't get it.

Also, if you had the first seven built, how on earth did you have "makeshift" sevens before it was built? Who made these? Did you help "develop" them? Where did you get the bridges for them etc? I am totally confused...I am seriously not trying to be a jerk and say you aren't being consistent but this all intrigues me and I am just confused as he[ck] right now over the things that you are saying.

Please re-read the post. This is the kind of thing that perpetuates all these problems, people reading without comprehending.

1. The emails he refers to are obviously the ones they have been sending each other the last of couple days.

2. The $400 was aparently a planning deposit with the $2000 being neccessary to start actual work. A very common business practice.

3. You do know what the word "makeshift" means, right?

 

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by PhatBasstard

1. The emails he refers to are obviously the ones they have been sending each other the last of couple days.

2. The $400 was aparently a planning deposit with the $2000 being neccessary to start actual work. A very common business practice.

3. You do know what the word "makeshift" means, right?

I would say it's this type of attitude that makes threads like these turn sour.

I too was also confused, in many of the same respects jared was.

1. I figured that he meant emails recently to letters(or photos) in the past, but it was kind of muddled in his posts

2. okay, makes sense, still a little muddled in the thread though.

3. that wasn't what jared's confusion was, how did he make them? makeshift duh that's juts a word, but how where did he get the bridges? or how did he modify them, what about the headstock, how did he fit another tuning peg in there comfortably, or the neck, what did he do to accommodate the thinner neck, THOSE were the questions jared(and myself) are interested in. no the fact they were makeshift(which was blatantly obvious)

 

[Garry Goodman]

Originally posted by Jared Morante
I am really confused here Garry. I am seeing you claim different things in all your posts here. First you said 1981 and then 1982 as Ken said...then you are talking about getting "EMAILS" from Ken in the early 80's?! Please tell me you are just confusing terminology here...


Show me where that email in the early 80's iss ,and I'll fix it.

There is only one month difference betwennDecember 1981 and January 1982 . I emailed Ken and told him i had the months years mixed up after seeing his notes and the money order.








About the deposit, was it 400 dollars or 2000?
Ken asked for a $@)00 deposit ,I sent him at least $$00 before he told me he couldn't make a 7 string.


At first you made it sound like he kept it by saying "he still has my deposit" as if Ken wasn't being honest about the whole deal,

i didn't make it sound any way other than "he still has my deposit' i could take you comment as just trying to start trouble. I never said Ken wasn't being honest. On Talk Bass ,I think we need to take things as they are written and not read in our own interpretations. IF I was going to accuse him ,I'll make it plain and clear.\\I had a typo and it should have read $400 not $$00.



and then you post that he offered to refund it. If that is the case why would you make it sound like he kept it on purpose? I, honestly, just don't get it.

the fact that you don't get it is not my problem-I don't oiwe you any explanations and don't have to account to you for anything and i am doing you a couteouy by replying to you post. I didn't "make it sound" anyway other than what;s typed ,you did-

Also, if you had the first seven built, how on earth did you have "makeshift" sevens before it was built?
- now they make kits to turn your 4 string into a 5 string .Some guitar repair guys helped me make a temporary 7 string set up.




Who made these? -you can buy my book when it comes out and read all about it.



Did you help "develop" them?- these guys weren't going to a 7th string because they were board. i paid them to do the work.

Where did you get the bridges for them etc?

the same place Michael Tobis got the bridges for my Tobias 7-they had to be machined




I am totally confused...I am seriously not trying to be a jerk and say you aren't being consistent but this all intrigues me and I am just confused as he[ck] right now over the things that you are saying.

They only seem to be inconsistancies. Both Ken and I have to go back some years to clarify this. and it's ok to point out a typos.. To keep from getting confused , try to cut everyone some slack- I am not stupid,although it may come as a surprize to some of you ,and i know there wasn't Email in the early 80's. Try to read aroung it and if it's really unclear ,ask me.

I know what happened in 1981-82. I wouldn't post here and discuss this with Ken , on a web site where every bass player in the world can read it ,unless what I claim is 100% real. So you wil just have to watch all this unfold as it does .

Thanks to John Turner for re opening the thread.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

With all due respect lets all chill and let Garry and Ken resolve their matter.there really is nothing else for any of us to say now unless someone has info that pertains to the original ? at the head of this Thread.

For the record Anthony Jackson's first 5 string was a makeshift 5

 

[temp5897]

Originally posted by Ninestring
They only seem to be inconsistancies. Both Ken and I have to go back some years to clarify this. and it's ok to point out a typos.. To keep from getting confused , try to cut everyone some slack- I am not stupid,although it may come as a surprize to some of you ,and i know there wasn't Email in the early 80's. Try to read aroung it and if it's really unclear ,ask me.

I know what happened in 1981-82. I wouldn't post here and discuss this with Ken , on a web site where every bass player in the world can read it ,unless what I claim is 100% real. So you wil just have to watch all this unfold as it does .

Thanks to John Turner for re opening the thread.

Thanks for the clarification Garry. I honestly just wanted to know as I was confused. My apologies if I just read the email thing wrong. I hope you don't think I was getting on your case, as I stated before, I was just confused.

I think some people might be jumping to conclusions as to what I was saying...I am not accusing anyone of anything. Like Jauqo said, lets all just chill. We should all be friends around here, right?

 

[20db pad]

In this interview, Anthony claims to have never used a five string:

http://members.aol.com/jlsmith42/aj/interview/jackson2.htm

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Thanks for your patience guys.. As soon as I know something about this mystery 7, I will let you know.
Yeah, 'Headstock'...... I would have had to design one of those too.....Thanks for reminding me 'Wrong Robot'. The 7 String Smith headstock was started in 1992 or 1993 for Melvin Davis and never ever thought of before.
Ask Melvin about my initial reaction to his idea of a 7 from me. The first time I ever heard of or even saw mention of a 7 in my life was the Conklin Sidewinder 7 ( I think that was the name of the model). Even then , I had no intention of making one.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

True at the time Anthony couldn't have the Low open string he invisioned and still have the G string so he did what was best.he came up with a makeshift instrument in order to obtain the Low open string he was going for.maybe not a 5 but never the less it was in deed a makeshift alternative

And thats all I was saying

 

[PhatBasstard]

Originally posted by Wrong Robot
I would say it's this type of attitude that makes threads like these turn sour.

No, it's the same thing JT complained about DEFELDUS, make sure you are comprehending (reading properly) before calling someone to task. I know Garry's grammar/typing isn't the best sometimes, but it is trackable with a little effort (and no preconceptions).

I too was also confused, in many of the same respects jared was.

I can't help it if you have the same problem. Of course they didn't have email back then.

3. that wasn't what jared's confusion was, how did he make them? makeshift duh that's juts a word, but how where did he get the bridges? or how did he modify them, what about the headstock, how did he fit another tuning peg in there comfortably, or the neck, what did he do to accommodate the thinner neck, THOSE were the questions jared(and myself) are interested in. no the fact they were makeshift(which was blatantly obvious)

OK, let's spell it out: If he is claiming that Ken is the first to "start" building a 7 string bass in '81 or '82, but was already playing one in the late 70s (as has already been established), of course it would have to be "makeshift"!. Jared did not simply ask a technical question of "how", he asked it in a manner as if to say "your story doesn't add up" without either reading the entire thread, or comprehending the obvious in the timeline presented.

I don't know for sure if Garry's story is true or not, but until he fails to come up with his documentation, I'm going to take the word of a couple of other respected TBers, that actually know Garry, and give him the benefit of the doubt.

Far too many negative, mocking comments have come in from the "real cheap seats" (people that don't have a shred of knowledge about this or Garry) without any documentaion to refute Garry's position.

Let's let Garry and Ken iron out their thing first, and then we'll go from there.

 

[temp5897]

Garry can you clarify something else? When did you get your first real seven? Earlier you said late 70's right? But you tried to have Ken Smith build you one in the early 80's you say? Why wouldn't you go with the person who originally built you one (michael tobias I thought)? Were you referring your "makeshift" 7 basses in the late 70's?

I am only asking because I want to know. If I missed the full explanation earlier my apologies once again. Again I am not trying to be a punk! Just curious because I am interested.