The Great Bass Preamp/DI Comparison

[Lowendtech]

Yes, my OCD failed me. And now it will forever bother me, enshrined in the forum for all eternity.

You're good, you still have time to edit the post and add a freshie. Just for posterity.

 

[jacoby75]

Curious about your signal path, in particular how you use your pre/eq pedals since there's quite a few of them on the board. I imagine you're going for a wide variety of tones with this board.

Yes. Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. I like to have options, and I like to have all of my options at my disposal all of the time, whether that's practical or not, lol. Granted, much of this has been purchased since COVID. So a lot of how this will work in the real world is pure theory and conjecture at this point. I could pare it down to a couple of smaller boards, but there is a lot of overlap in what I would use for different setups (worship vs cover band vs theater, for example) so it would get pricey to maintain separate boards for all of it. And of course, that's assuming we all ever have the chance to gig again at all. At the rate things are moving now, that's dubious. This could all be a pipe dream.

But the general theory is this . . .

Passive bass of some kind > Broughton Solarian > channel strip > output to Doc Lloyd PDR > SVPre > Silver Deluxe > HPF/LPF > Minnow > Khan DI > FOH . . . no amp, in theory.

- That's the core of my sound (at least in my bedroom, for the time being). I don't quite have it all dialed in yet, since a lot of this has been purchased recently. I used to run a Linden and the Silver Deluxe together, but just sold the Linden to help fund the Khan. So I'm sort of retweaking the Silver Deluxe's role in all of this. The general thought was using the SD for worship stuff, maybe theater stuff as well, and tweaking it slightly with the Minnow as necessary. Totally overkill, I know, to tweak an SD with a Minnow, but I had the Minnow anyway, and it's really sweet and I don't really want to part with it. Plus the Minnow is an extra DI should the Khan take a crap for some ungodly reason. For theater gigs, it might be just the Minnow as a pre. The SVPre is more for the rock/blues cover band vibe . . . in theory, not in practice yet. I'm trying to start a band with a friend, but Covid totally put the kibosh on all of that, so we're in a holding pattern.

Loop 1 is the drives: Joyo Golden Face > EBS FuzzMo (currently for sale, might not stay) > YYZ > EBS Sheehan Ultimate Drive > back to loop switcher.

- I don't do much with drives apart from bedroom jamming at this point. Don't get MUCH opportunity to use drives in church, but I want to. I wanna be more of a rocker than I really am. But it's fun. The GF is a Marshall sim I purchased after watching a rather poorly recorded demo on Youtube. It's a real sleeper for pick rock tone. There's something it does to the EQ that is just to die for when I play with a pick (which is rather rare, but like a few of the Phil Wickham tunes). Maybe there's a low-mid boost? And you can add just a touch of hair. It makes picked songs sound phenomenal. I've actually had a chance to use that one a few times in church. It's surprising. It's so cheap, but sounds so good. I've never heard anything like what it does to my tone. It's not the same thing as, say, trying to eq the same tone out of the Minnow or something. It doesn't work. But I don't like how it sounds fingerstyle. The FuzzMo I use on minimum gain for that "farty pushed tube amp" tone. It's surprisingly good at that. But I don't use it often, and have yet to use it outside of the home for that. It's more of a theory, something I hope to use when I get to play in a cover project again. Could also be a fuzz, of course, should the cover song call for it. The other two I think are self-explanatory.

Loop 2 is the chorus and wah
- I have yet to actually use a wah outside of the home . . . ever. Well, that's not true. I used one over 20yrs ago when I was in a really bad ska band. It was a terrible idea. But I quit using effects, and we got better. Coincidence? Maybe. But it's a great sounding one, and I hope to one day actually turn it on in a cover band setting.

Tuner out from the channel strip to the tuner

 

[Btbp]

That blue glow isn't the tube. There's an LED in there.

A small thing perhaps, but isn't this just a bit disingenuous?
Or cheesy, like those bottom-lit cars.
Are they entirely superfluous, or do they serve any function besides appearance?

 

[Rocksolid]

A small thing perhaps, but isn't this just a bit disingenuous?
Or cheesy, like those bottom-lit cars.
Are they entirely superfluous, or do they serve any function besides appearance?

There are plenty of LEDs behind tubes in products. I can remember my old Mark bass TTE500 had nice yellow/orange LEDs behind the tubes to enhance the glow...

 

[Rocksolid]

I've got a Barber Linden EQ on the way thanks to @jacoby75. Looking forward to hearing that after the LA, and comparing to my PA.

In this time of no gigs, the obsessing over tone is at an all time high, and that means trying new combos of gear. There are no tubes involved, but I still think the combo of my Fairfield modele B, Becos CompIQ, MXR M81 is really floating my boat.

 

[Hypercaffium]

I still think the combo of my Fairfield modele B, Becos CompIQ, MXR M81 is really floating my boat.

Who said tubes are better and/or even necessary? The trio you mentioned is rock solid and sounds great.
I like variety so I bought 3 different preamps (including a SLO), but I never understood the obsession over tubes. YMMV.

 

[alecvbass]

I was curious what's everyone's opinion on rack preamp/DIs as compared to the 'pedal' variants (i.e. Noble, Oracle etc.)

Rack units seem higher in the pecking order since they are built with no compromise as regard to space and power requirements (or aren't they?) so it would seem logical that a rack unit will have superior sonic performance when compared to a similar priced pedalboard friendly equivalent.

More specifically, as much as I would like to have a Noble + Cali76 mini pedalboard, an Avalon U5 + Klark Teknik 76-KT would be slightly cheaper and presumably better sounding too - which would translate to a smarter buy?

I'm sure a lot of people prefer a pedalboard friendly form factor as it is way easier to carry and set up, and there are a lot of differently flavored preamps so there's not clear cut answer to this, but I feel that's something worth discussing with you all.

BTW I'm absolutely loving this thread - there's so much information to be had here, I check it literally every day.

 

[Rocksolid]

Who said tubes are better and/or even necessary? The trio you mentioned is rock solid and sounds great.
I like variety so I bought 3 different preamps (including a SLO), but I never understood the obsession over tubes. YMMV.

Tubes aren't necessary specifically, but a vast majority of Preamps for instance (Sansamp, Aguilar Tone Hammer, the Fairfield I mentioned, and the list goes on...) are all Tube (amp) Emulators. Tubes may not be better, but a heap of Preamps without them are striving to get their sound in some form whether that be how they break up, the Harmonic overtones, or the general heft of the note that is associated with Tubes. So IMO even the Pedal manufacturers are obsessed with tubes to some point.

A few years back a Fender Super Bassman came up for sale local to me. I went to try it out - not because I wanted to buy it, but because I wanted to be able to dismiss in my own mind the ongoing obsession with Tube amps here on TB and in general. By the end of the week it was mine, and my solid state amps were up for sale. Any pedalboard or combination of pedals I have is an attempt to emulate the tone of that amp, and the overdrive tones it is capable of.

 

[Rocksolid]

I was curious what's everyone's opinion on rack preamp/DIs as compared to the 'pedal' variants (i.e. Noble, Oracle etc.)

Rack units seem higher in the pecking order since they are built with no compromise as regard to space and power requirements (or aren't they?) so it would seem logical that a rack unit will have superior sonic performance when compared to a similar priced pedalboard friendly equivalent.

More specifically, as much as I would like to have a Noble + Cali76 mini pedalboard, an Avalon U5 + Klark Teknik 76-KT would be slightly cheaper and presumably better sounding too - which would translate to a smarter buy?

I'm sure a lot of people prefer a pedalboard friendly form factor as it is way easier to carry and set up, and there are a lot of differently flavored preamps so there's not clear cut answer to this, but I feel that's something worth discussing with you all.

BTW I'm absolutely loving this thread - there's so much information to be had here, I check it literally every day.

Nothing wrong with Rack Preamps. It's certainly where my taste for Preamps started. Presonus Tube Channel, ART TubePAC& TubeEQ, and Tech 21 RPM (I really really regret selling this one.) I have an Ampeg SVP Pro now which I picked up a couple of years ago and it sounds divine. I have it racked with a Tuner and a Wireless unit and if I don't need any other effects it quite often gets the gig.

 

[Hypercaffium]

Tubes aren't necessary specifically, but a vast majority of Preamps for instance (Sansamp, Aguilar Tone Hammer, the Fairfield I mentioned, and the list goes on...) are all Tube (amp) Emulators. Tubes may not be better, but a heap of Preamps without them are striving to get their sound in some form whether that be how they break up, the Harmonic overtones, or the general heft of the note that is associated with Tubes. So IMO even the Pedal manufacturers are obsessed with tubes to some point.

A few years back a Fender Super Bassman came up for sale local to me. I went to try it out - not because I wanted to buy it, but because I wanted to be able to dismiss in my own mind the ongoing obsession with Tube amps here on TB and in general. By the end of the week it was mine, and my solid state amps were up for sale. Any pedalboard or combination of pedals I have is an attempt to emulate the tone of that amp, and the overdrive tones it is capable of.

I like tubes of course, who doesn't? But to me it's just a flavour, something I pick when I want that kind of tone. I've found myself in a situation very similar to yours. I was trying a Bassman, a Mesa Subway and a Quilter BB800 in a local shop. The Bassman was the one I liked the less, and I've bought the BB800. Like I said, YMMV.

 

[jacoby75]

I like tubes of course, who doesn't? But to me it's just a flavour, something I pick when I want that kind of tone. I've found myself in a situation very similar to yours. I was trying a Bassman, a Mesa Subway and a Quilter BB800 in a local shop. The Bassman was the one I liked the less, and I've bought the BB800. Like I said, YMMV.

It all depends on what you want, as with just about anything else. It's not that tubes are "best." But if that's the sound you want . . . a vintage tube ampey type sound . . . it's hard to get out of things that don't have an actual tube or tubes in them. Many things approximate that sound, as noted above, but there's nothing quite like the 3D warmth that an actual tube in your signal chain can add. As Rocksolid noted, I've been on that quest for years as well. Trying to emulate a tube amp without a tube amp. Some things get close. Some closer. But it's a never-ending quest for different flavors of awesome. But, again, that's only if that's the sound you want. Solid state can be perfectly fine as well.

 

[Hypercaffium]

I like both and use both.

 

[bucephylus]

I was curious what's everyone's opinion on rack preamp/DIs as compared to the 'pedal' variants (i.e. Noble, Oracle etc.)

Rack units seem higher in the pecking order since they are built with no compromise as regard to space and power requirements (or aren't they?) so it would seem logical that a rack unit will have superior sonic performance when compared to a similar priced pedalboard friendly equivalent.

More specifically, as much as I would like to have a Noble + Cali76 mini pedalboard, an Avalon U5 + Klark Teknik 76-KT would be slightly cheaper and presumably better sounding too - which would translate to a smarter buy?

I'm sure a lot of people prefer a pedalboard friendly form factor as it is way easier to carry and set up, and there are a lot of differently flavored preamps so there's not clear cut answer to this, but I feel that's something worth discussing with you all.

BTW I'm absolutely loving this thread - there's so much information to be had here, I check it literally every day.

This is a really excellent Q. I have done comparisons between my Demeter rack preamps and my SLO MkIIIs. I also just posted a similar A/B between the Alembic F1X and the AMT Bricks A Bass:
AMT Brick "Alembic Tube Preamp" pedal

My bottom line based on my comparisons so far is that the tone of the pedalboard preamps, in terms of driving backline rigs, isn't quite at the same dynamic level as the rack mount preamps. But, they do produce remarkably useful tone for the DI function. Caveat: I have not yet tried either the Noble or the Arkham preamps for this aspect.

 

[SteveC]

The move away from rack gear and even amps probably plays a part on this. Aguilar, Eden, Hartke, rumor has it soon Bergantino, all have pedal versions of their amps. Lots of bass players go direct. Lots of bands go silent stage. There's a market for great pre/DI's out there.

A fairly small, manageable pedal board that has all your Stuff is pretty convenient. If I used a rack Pre of some kind, I'd still have at least a tuner/mute pedal and my Rolls PM50s for my IEM's. I suppose I could mount it in the rack somehow. IDK, if you use effects it seems having it all on a board is easier and more convenient. And live, a nice tube DI pedal is still probably overkill for the environment.

 

[bucephylus]

The move away from rack gear and even amps probably plays a part on this. Aguilar, Eden, Hartke, rumor has it soon Bergantino, all have pedal versions of their amps. Lots of bass players go direct. Lots of bands go silent stage. There's a market for great pre/DI's out there.

A fairly small, manageable pedal board that has all your Stuff is pretty convenient. If I used a rack Pre of some kind, I'd still have at least a tuner/mute pedal and my Rolls PM50s for my IEM's. I suppose I could mount it in the rack somehow. IDK, if you use effects it seems having it all on a board is easier and more convenient. And live, a nice tube DI pedal is still probably overkill for the environment.

I agree with all of that. The Ampless soundstage pretty much renders the backline rigs to be dinosaurs. I'm just tracking with where the pedalboard preamps are as preamps, relative to what we are accustomed to using. There are so many other issues in the Ampless signal chain, that this probably isn't anywhere near the top of my list. I'm just tracking the diffs. FWIW.

Also, I will admit to NOT being a fan at all of the Ampless thing. There are so many issues, that I think it says a lot that the preamp pedals not having as much dynamic content as the rack predecessors isn't really even a main concern. I've got a laundry list of aspects of live bass sound, where the bass instrument is being relegated to a bunch of background noise; probably chief among them is that we as players get absolutely no voice in how that happens. Again, IME.

I will give you that convenience is probably the biggest plus so far. We are essentially being given a convenient way to make the live bass significantly inferior. Not in all cases; but it has happened enough in my performances to be a real thing for me. No comment on studio performance. I have no doubt that these units can be used to produce stellar results in the studio.

 

[jacoby75]

A fairly small, manageable pedal board that has all your Stuff is pretty convenient. If I used a rack Pre of some kind, I'd still have at least a tuner/mute pedal and my Rolls PM50s for my IEM's. I suppose I could mount it in the rack somehow. IDK, if you use effects it seems having it all on a board is easier and more convenient. And live, a nice tube DI pedal is still probably overkill for the environment.

That's kind of my thought. I'm sure my core tone would be better overall with my rack unit, but for small-time stuff, it's not worth lugging an amp/cab and pedalboard. Having a passable setup all on one pedalboard is appealing. If I'm going to bring a pedalboard anyway to have compression and other effects, might as well just have it all on there. But I've got so much invested in my large pedalboard now, it makes me hesitant to ever actually take it out to a bar gig. Quite the Catch-22.

 

[labeledbass]

I will give you that convenience is probably the biggest plus so far. We are essentially being given a convenient way to make the live bass significantly inferior. No comment on studio performance. I have no doubt that these units can be used to produce stellar results in the studio.

After a long hiatus with playing, coming back into everything I am seeing more and more of this (large pedal boards, ONLY). I tried it out last year, mostly pedals, into DI unless I wasn't using headphones. But, after comparing everything I had to their "original models", I've found myself back into a rack. Linden was replaced with a zephyr, SVpre (which I still have..) replaced with a SVPCL, torpedo CAB M replaced by a Fryette PS2 for my power stage sound & literal power. I still have some Broughton "tool" pedals, but my 6 space rack has about the same footprint, even less if atop my cab. If I traveled I guess throwing down pedal board would be nice, even with some light class D amps or wireless in ear monitors, and at the moment it is more economical, but some of these tube preamps are getting up there, noble/meat smoke/oracle ect. Maybe I'm just one of the old ones

 

[misterCRUSH]

at home, i play through a BA 115, and on stage i play through the same thing. i could go direct, via my Le Bass preamp, but i play primarily in jazz piano trios so there isn't much there for me to compete against on stage. I do use the DI from my preamp when recording. I have found it noiseless and well balanced. it's a great preamp for everything i'm doing. very happy with my choice.

 

[SteveC]

We made the jump to IEM/Silent Stage long ago at church and in the cover band. Even though I am jealous of some of the great rigs I see, I still feel the benefits outweigh the potential loss in sound quality. And again, live in a venue, these $500+ tube DI's probably sound ok.

I have a nice little combo to handle the occasional jazz gig or theatre show. But even then, many theaters take a DI.

 

[chadhargis]

We made the jump to IEM/Silent Stage long ago at church and in the cover band. Even though I am jealous of some of the great rigs I see, I still feel the benefits outweigh the potential loss in sound quality. And again, live in a venue, these $500+ tube DI's probably sound ok.

I have a nice little combo to handle the occasional jazz gig or theatre show. But even then, many theaters take a DI.

My church is all silent stage (drummer excluded!) and IEMs. I have to say, the multiple subs that literally shake the building sound far better than any rig I could fit in my car.