The host band ruined the jam.

[Richard Lindsey]

Interesting. So Eb = E when you tune down. I guess I have nine fingers if I start counting at zero.

Nope, you're confused here. E is never = Eb. That would be like saying 4 = 3. A pitch is a musical frequency. It is essentially independent of the physical means used to produce it. An E is not defined as the open lowest string of a 4-string bass. It is defined as ~41 Hz (qualifier: in current Western common practice). If that's the note your lowest string is tuned to, then playing that string open will produce an E, but if you tune the string lower, it's not an E when open any more. This is obvious when you detune one string, as when you play in drop D; it should be equally obvious when you detune all of them.

 

[petrus61]

The guitarist is "correct" to call that chord E instead of F#.

I take it you don't work much with horn players? When John Coltrane played Bb on his saxophone, he called it C. When Jimi Hendrix played Eb on his guitar, he called it E. Same difference.

No, it's not.

 

[petrus61]

Bands with horns quite often play a lot in flat keys

Correct, and not relative to downtuning from standard pitch.

 

[sawzalot]

The BL of my band once got drunk onstage and kept putting a capo on the wrong fret, then blaming everybody else for not playing in the right key.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I take it you don't work much with horn players? When John Coltrane played Bb on his saxophone, he called it C. When Jimi Hendrix played Eb on his guitar, he called it E. Same difference.

I can't and won't speak for RoaDan, but I've worked a lot with horn players, and I've never met a single one who "called" a concert Bb a C. They know perfectly well that they play transposing instruments, and thus that when they play a note written as C on their Bb (or Eb) charts, it's NOT really a concert C. They're not in any confusion on this point. I'm morally certain Coltrane wasn't either.

And when speaking to other musicians, they ALWAYS give the actual concert pitch/key, because they know that other instruments either (a) don't transpose or (b) transpose differently.

Can't say what Hendrix might have called it, but it wouldn't be determinative anyway.

 

[LBS-bass]

At jams around here, 99 times out of 100, Superstition is played in E for that exact reason. It's just easier that way.

I have an ongoing issue with this song for this reason. My singer really does struggle with it in E, though, but he does his best to accommodate us not having to tune it down. If I were doing more than one song written in Eb I would bring another bass tuned to that key but I don't feel the juice is worth the squeeze for one song at most of the shows we do. Plus, when we do it in E we put it in the middle of a dance set where everything's in E, but if I had to change basses or detune it would mess up the dance flow.

And nope, not getting a Drop D tuner. I want my intervals where I'm used to them on all the strings.

 

[5StringBlues]

Knuckleheads.

 

[chaosMK]

The guys in Eb should be able to adapt to the guys who want to play in E

 

[Element Zero]

One of the MANY reasons why I don't attend "jams".

 

[Hahaha]

Nope, you're confused here. E is never = Eb. That would be like saying 4 = 3. A pitch is a musical frequency. It is essentially independent of the physical means used to produce it. An E is not defined as the open lowest string of a 4-string bass. It is defined as ~41 Hz (qualifier: in current Western common practice). If that's the note your lowest string is tuned to, then playing that string open will produce an E, but if you tune the string lower, it's not an E when open any more. This is obvious when you detune one string, as when you play in drop D; it should be equally obvious when you detune all of them.

I know. I was just trying to be funny with my nine finger comparison to the logic of E equals Eb.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I know. I was just trying to be funny with my nine finger comparison to the logic of E equals Eb.

And once more a joke has sailed right over the top of my head.... Sorry about that.

 

[tekhedd]

I take it you don't work much with horn players? When John Coltrane played Bb on his saxophone, he called it C.

Citation needed? (Also, I take it you don't work much with horn players either. )

I'm going to go out on a limb here: No, he **** well didn't. Unless this refers to his work in the saxophone choir while in the Navy or something.

With mixed instrumentation, you call keys in standard tuning. Unless you're a d-bag, as described in OP's posting.

(Also some advice to all: if you've never heard a saxophone ensemble playing string quartets transcribed for saxophone... don't.)

 

[MultiScaleMale]

This is really a nothing burger. Just tune down a half step and go with it. If you show up with a sax or a brass instrument, then you can complain, but most of those guys/gals know how to transpose on the fly anyways. I doubt it was an acoustic piano, so just hit the transpose button and drop it a half step.

 

[Garret Graves]

Here too. Then I joined a cover band that played it in Eb as written. Fortunately I play a 5 string so I didn't have to detune for the song or play the bass part all weird and high, but the part where it doubles the horn part became a lot more work to play than it is in E.

I play that part in the middle of the neck, whether in E or E flat, and I grace or slide into the 5 and 3 at the end of the riff. I wouldn't play open strings on the riff myself, but I appreciate the commentary on it. I also play 5 strings in general.

 

[Hahaha]

And once more a joke has sailed right over the top of my head.... Sorry about that.

Don't feel bad. I should probably get an award for getting the most blank stares from the audience when I think I've cracked a joke.

 

[craigie]

^ Wow! I can do it on a fiver, or even with a seconds' thought on a four, but that's the sort of thing that would have been handy to know.
The less experienced guys and girls at the jam were completely lost.
I forgot to mention- Band leader was a bit of a snot about it. Would show jammers a chord (eg- E formation, and say loudly E, but it was Eb)

Big pet peeve of mine. That's when you say "just put a capo on 1. Then your E will actually be an E." however, that would probably cost you the sound gig unfortunately. I guess you weren't doing sound as you said the sound was bad....

 

[Richard Lindsey]

This is really a nothing burger. Just tune down a half step and go with it. If you show up with a sax or a brass instrument, then you can complain, but most of those guys/gals know how to transpose on the fly anyways. I doubt it was an acoustic piano, so just hit the transpose button and drop it a half step.

Sure, you can do that, or you can just transpose on the fly (helps if you have a low B, of course).

But I think the point is you shouldn't have to. In an open jam situation, the host band isn't there to do their own thing so much as they are to make it comfortable for the guest performers to do theirs. IOW, they should have accommodated the guests better rather than trying to make the guests accommodate their preferences.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Sure, you can do that, or you can just transpose on the fly (helps if you have a low B, of course).

But I think the point is you shouldn't have to. In an open jam situation, the host band isn't there to do their own thing so much as they are to make it comfortable for the guest performers to do theirs. IOW, they should have accommodated the guests better rather than trying to make the guests accommodate their preferences.

They're probably down a half step to help the vocals. It's a valid reason.

 

[LBS-bass]

I play that part in the middle of the neck, whether in E or E flat, and I grace or slide into the 5 and 3 at the end of the riff. I wouldn't play open strings on the riff myself, but I appreciate the commentary on it. I also play 5 strings in general.

Funny how we all play it differently. I play it in the middle too but the last three notes I play on the G, D and A strings, respectively.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

They're probably down a half step to help the vocals. It's a valid reason.

True, that can be valid in some circumstances. But whose vocals? It's not something that all vocalists would want or need. Clearly it was done for the convenience of the host band, which, again, shouldn't be the focus here. They're supposed to be facilitators of others here; it's not about them.

It's not that downtuning is a bad thing; you and I both could think--and have thought--of perfectly valid reasons to do it, in certain contexts. Making it harder for jammers to hang in an open jam, though, IS kind of a bad thing, which is why it's kind of a bad idea here.