The host band ruined the jam.

[Richard Lindsey]

Yeah, I'll tell all the new players who are trying their first shot on stage to bring one.

That should go well.

Seriously, it puzzles me why it's so hard to see that, regardless of the various valid reasons a band might have for detuning for their own thing, to do so for an open jam is just a dumb dick move.

 

[MichelD]

Just tell me what key we're really in.

Or at least inform me "We're down a half-step so whatever regular chord shape you see me play, it's a 1/2 step flat."

I get baffled when jamming with an acoustic player that moves the capo all the time.

Particularly if they play more than three chords.

Me in my mind: "Let's see, he's playing a Bm chord shape, but he's got the capo three frets up so if he plays G that's A so if he's playing Bm that must be C#m."

Meanwhile the song is half over.

 

[Mushroo]

If you are playing a guitar piece where you tune the low E down to D and the A to G, do you think you continue to write them as E and A and just note that they are tuned down a whole step? You most certainly do not. You write them as D and G.

It would absolutely 100% correct to write E and A .This has been the notational convention for hundreds of years. Check out Bach's Cello Suite #5 in C Minor for example. The "scordatura" notation tells the musician where to put their fingers for an accurate performance (not the pitches that will sound).

I really am not making this stuff up. It is basic "arranging 101" that a give note name (Bb for example) might sound at different pitches when played on different instruments.

 

[The13thFret]

This sounds like it would fit at least one definition of jam ...
Dictionary result for jam
/dʒam/
noun

1. INFORMAL
   an awkward situation or predicament.
   "I'm in a jam"

 

[MichelD]

6 pages on this, geez... This is why I skip open mic's and jam's ... rather set up with some experienced
folks in my studio..

For the most part I do too.

Why go to a bar, feel compelled to buy at least two beers for $8.00 each for the opportunity to play three songs with guitarists and singers who might not even be any good? The last time I went it was because a friend and his group were invited to do a mini-set and their bassist couldn't make it. I knew the guys and tunes so it worked.
But in general I'd rather hang out with friends and play for the whole three hours, not hang around for three hours to play three songs.

That said, I have friends who have been invited to be in pretty good groups from attending jams.

 

[jrick7]

Just to play devil's advocate I have a guitar that I keep tuned down a half step for action reasons. I pretty commonly forget that it's tuned down a half step until I go to play with people or a recording. I think part of the reason I remember is that I'm able to realize that I forget and because I have another guitar in standard tuning and a bass in standard tuning (that was recently in BEAD), and a 5 string bass...basically I use a few different tunings fairly often so I'm aware that if something is off it's probably me.

It might not be so easy to remember if you only play with your band in one tuning and never play in any other tunings (all the while you mentally think about your guitar in standard tuning to make things easier for you brain), and then you're playing with other people in standard tuning. It might not register quite as quickly that you're the one who's calling the key wrong.

That said...you should realize it at some point, and how/if you communicate it when you do is the real tell of what kind of band leader/jam organizer you are. I'm guessing he never did based on the fact that the OP is understandably frustrated about the experience on behalf of his fellow musicians, but I didn't see if he said so or not.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I assume the "piano players" were playing an actual acoustic piano tuned standard A440; otherwise a "keyboard" is very easy to change the tuning. With that assumption...

Mistake #1: Tuning to Eb and playing along with a piano tuned standard. It practically begs for a clusterfudge.

This is why some bands/projects need a little thing called leadership.

Egads!... I've worked with keyboardist that only play in C, and can only function with the help of the onboard transposer....

As for the Jam, ought to invite that BL to a jam of his own an at the down beat, tell him he's playing in B...

 

[gln1955]

It would absolutely 100% correct to write E and A .This has been the notational convention for hundreds of years. Check out Bach's Cello Suite #5 in C Minor for example. The "scordatura" notation tells the musician where to put their fingers for an accurate performance (not the pitches that will sound).

I really am not making this stuff up. It is basic "arranging 101" that a give note name (Bb for example) might sound at different pitches when played on different instruments.

I seriously doubt anyone at the OP's jam was reading Bach. In your effort to be technically correct you are missing the whole point of the thread.

 

[Bluzlvr]

This may be off-point, but I know a couple of guys that really can't sing. But they tune down a half step and like magic, they can sing(in their minds only). It cracks me up. I don't tell 'em though, cuz if they think they are now singing in key, I'm not going to change their mind. Besides, they're having fun(and I can follow along). It's all good.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

It would absolutely 100% correct to write E and A .This has been the notational convention for hundreds of years. Check out Bach's Cello Suite #5 in C Minor for example. The notation tells the musician where to put their fingers for an accurate performance (not the pitches that will sound).

I really am not making this stuff up. It is basic "arranging 101" that a give note name (Bb for example) might sound at different pitches when played on different instruments.

Then that is essentially tablature, not notation as we understand it currently, and thus completely irrelevant to what we've been talking about. We're talking about systems of rendering pitches, not directions for where to put your fingers. Apples and oranges.

No, it hasn't been the notational convention for hundreds of years. Perhaps it was once, and you could perhaps make a sensible argument for using it in select cases now, but it is far from standard.

I've been reading guitar music for over 50 years, and in my time I've read many, many classical guitar scores. Not a single one that required a low D has EVER written E and expected me to sound a D. Not one. Ever. Neither has any slack-key chart I've read, or any jazz piece either, for that matter. Hey, I haven't seen everything, and maybe there are scores that do that, but it most definitely is not the norm. At least not for guitar.

As one of a huge number of possible examples (look around measure 51), if I can manage to insert this file correctly....

Of course a note written as C might come off as a different concert pitch on different instruments, if they're transposing instruments. But the thing is, guitar has never been traditionally considered to be such an instrument, nor has bass. Current practice for most guitar music, at least over the past century or two, has been to write the concert pitches. I'm sure it's possible to find exceptions, but they are just that--exceptions--and notable precisely because they're departures from the norm, not the norm itself.

 

[Mark Ambler]

Doh. Simple answer. Everyone uses a pitchconverter. Sorted.

It's 2019, guys. Get real.

 

[Slevage]

Guitar based blues is usually in keys like A or E or G … but bands with horns will play in keys like B flat …

And you are right a good musician can play in any key … another reason I like my 5 string basses … keys like Eb and F and D work better

Bb concert for trumpet and tenor sax is C -makes it easier for beginners.
Tower of Power's "What is Hip" is in E concert—- this puts the trumpet and tenor sax in F# ( alto sax would be in C# if there was one in that song).
Tricky horn keys— but not for accomplished players.
A friend of mine is a great guitarist—-
All he needs to know is " in between the dots or on the dots?". He finds the key and away he goes.
Blues in Eb or Ab — no problem, great musician!

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Bb for trumpet and tenor sax is C concert

Other way around, actually: written C for trumpet and tenor is concert Bb.

 

[BurtMacklinFBI]

Still longer than giving the right key to people!

And that's not the issue. $#%$$#@. This is a $?&?@* stupid conversation. There are people arguing here that telling someone the wrong key is some kind of musical genius move or everyone else's musical shortcoming.

Being able to play in any key is an important skill. Being able to communicate the name of the key you want the others to play in should come first though.

?@#&*)@# it's dumb reading sometimes.

I'm just going to agree with this and not get myself banned sharing my own thoughts on such ridiculous willful stupidity.

 

[trailer]

I'm just going to agree with this and not get myself banned sharing my own thoughts on such ridiculous willful stupidity.

I'm backing away as well. I'm amazed by some of what I've read here today.

 

[Mushroo]

Then that is essentially tablature, not notation as we understand it currently, and thus completely irrelevant to what we've been talking about. We're talking about systems of rendering pitches, not directions for where to put your fingers. Apples and oranges.

No, it hasn't been the notational convention for hundreds of years. Perhaps it was once, and you could perhaps make a sensible argument for using it in select cases now, but it is far from standard.

I've been reading guitar music for over 50 years, and in my time I've read many, many classical guitar scores. Not a single one that required a low D has EVER written E and expected me to sound a D. Not one. Ever. Neither has any slack-key chart I've read, or any jazz piece either, for that matter. Hey, I haven't seen everything, and maybe there are scores that do that, but it most definitely is not the norm. At least not for guitar.

As one of a huge number of possible examples (look around measure 51), if I can manage to insert this file correctly....

Of course a note written as C might come off as a different concert pitch on different instruments, if they're transposing instruments. But the thing is, guitar has never been traditionally considered to be such an instrument, nor has bass. Current practice for most guitar music, at least over the past century or two, has been to write the concert pitches. I'm sure it's possible to find exceptions, but they are just that--exceptions--and notable precisely because they're departures from the norm, not the norm itself.

Sorry, I was talking about Bach's composition for Cello (not lute). Is "cello tab" even a thing?

Here is a really cool version of the score, showing both notation options.

File:PMLP04291-Bach - Cello Suite No5 in Cm (Becker Peters).pdf - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music

On the top staff, you have the scordatura notation that tells you where to put your fingers. For example look at the downbeat of measure 2. The top note of the chord is written as Bb. However, since the A string is downtuned to G, the Bb actually sounds as Ab. On the bottom staff, the music is written at concert pitch.

Both of these notation systems are 100% "correct."

At the end of the day, it is all about communication skill. I frequently play with guitarists who use alternate tunings, so I spent practice time and put in a little effort to learn how they think. Instead of calling my musical partners "morons," I try to see it from their point of view, and play in the same key as them, so the song sounds good.

For example, when a rock or blues guitarist who uses Eb tuning tells me, "The chords are C, F, G," I know that they probably mean (concert pitch) B, E, F#. It's not about winning arguments, it's about putting on a good performance for the audience.

 

[Mushroo]

I seriously doubt anyone at the OP's jam was reading Bach. In your effort to be technically correct you are missing the whole point of the thread.

Well no, I'm not saying Bach did this weird thing one time, and then the tradition died out. Rather, I am saying there is a continuous, centuries-long tradition of how music is notated for string instruments. This tradition goes back at least to the time of Bach, continues down through Jimi Hendrix, and is still used by lots of rock and blues guitarists to this day (from amateurs to the top pros).

The tradition is this: It is 100% okay and correct to treat string instruments as 'transposing' instruments that sound in a different key than they are notated.

Specific example: Notating Jimi's performance of "Star Spangled Banner" in E Major (even thought it actually sounds in Eb Major) was technically correct in Bach's day, it was correct in the Woodstock era, and it continues to be correct in the 21st century.

 

[FSGrind]

Going to chime in here & say that it's an open jam & it doesn't matter lol. Be out of tune all you want.

 

[The Biz]

TELLING PEOPLE WHAT KEY A SONG IS IN IS NOT AN ARGUMENT. IT'S A FACT!


@#$%?&*()$%?&*()%&?*(())_%?&*I(O)

 

[2F/2F]

When you're tuned down across the board, you aren't a "moron" for calling changes as if it was straight tuning. Are you gonna expect the person to say "flat" after every call? Hell no; that's dumb.

That said, if you're going to actually "call" chords at all (something I can't stand anyhow), you should almost always call intervals, not the actual chord names.

I never, outside of knowing what key I'm in, think note names when I'm playing. That's not how I conceptualize or play music. I think and play based on intervals. It's faster in my head, and transposition becomes a near total non issue.