Evidently "alternative facts" are a thing on TB now.
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The host band ruined the jam.
- Thread starter Paulabass
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Evidently "alternative facts" are a thing on TB now.
Sorry, missed the cello bit. Serves me right for reading too fast!Sorry, I was talking about Bach's composition for Cello (not lute). Is "cello tab" even a thing?
Here is a really cool version of the score, showing both notation options.
File:PMLP04291-Bach - Cello Suite No5 in Cm (Becker Peters).pdf - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music
On the top staff, you have the scordatura notation that tells you where to put your fingers. For example look at the downbeat of measure 2. The top note of the chord is written as Bb. However, since the A string is downtuned to G, the Bb actually sounds as Ab. On the bottom staff, the music is written at concert pitch.
Both of these notation systems are 100% "correct."
At the end of the day, it is all about communication skill. I frequently play with guitarists who use alternate tunings, so I spent practice time and put in a little effort to learn how they think. Instead of calling my musical partners "morons," I try to see it from their point of view, and play in the same key as them, so the song sounds good.
For example, when a rock or blues guitarist who uses Eb tuning tells me, "The chords are C, F, G," I know that they probably mean B, E, F#. It's not about winning arguments, it's about putting on a good performance for the audience.
Fair point about the scordatura notation; not something I've had cause to use. Interesting to see. Though it doesn't really tell you so much where to put your fingers as it does instruct you to pretend you're playing in standard tuning. But that's a mere quibble.
Nevertheless, that is nowhere near standard in guitar music. Not saying it never happens, but it's not the dominant approach and certainly not the preferred one overall. Far more common is the example I am trying to attach, in which the variant tunings are prescribed but the pitches are rendered in concert.
And for the record, I have never, and would never, call someone a moron for using an alternate tuning. I've worked with plenty of folks who do that, and done it myself. It's just a tool. But when dealing with other musicians, it's important to know what the common reference point (concert pitch) is and convey it correctly, especially in a situation where you have little or no time. Sure, you can mentally transpose on the fly, so can I, and so can lots of folks here. But it's easier if I don't have to, and it's certainly much easier for people who play different instruments (like piano or saxophone), are less experienced, or both.
Attachments
When you're tuning that guitar or bass down a half step on stage make sure you do it nice and loud so everyone has to listen to it. No headstock clip-on tuners! Order everyone else on stage to be quiet and take your sweet time. 
Nothing hurts the ear more than half a step out of tune!
A full step is a wrong note and noticable... But a half step!?
Worbble....argh!
That actually hurts
That helps for fairly well established styles, like major/minor blues, or for songs that you partly know, but it doesn't always get the job done.
One time I was playing a gig with a Celtic band. We had a piano player sit in. Great musician; great ear. There was a drum solo, after which we were going to come in strong on the downbeat of a new tune, which the pianist didn't know. The pianist yells to the accordionist, "What key?" Answer: "A!" Only problem? The tune wasn't in a major key. I had to lean over and tell the pianist, "A MINOR!" He had been getting all set to come in with a big fat A major chord, which would not have been good. So there's sometimes value in calling the chord names....
9 pages and we're still discussing if it's ok to tune a half step down and not tell a room full of cover band players waiting to play......
Whenever possible, I prefer this style of notation (click to enlarge):
It clearly communicates what the guitarist needs to know, without unnecessarily confusing the concert-pitch singer or pianist.
(An interesting observation, I was watching a live performance, and James Taylor physically moves the capo when the song modulates!)
It clearly communicates what the guitarist needs to know, without unnecessarily confusing the concert-pitch singer or pianist.
(An interesting observation, I was watching a live performance, and James Taylor physically moves the capo when the song modulates!)
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I feel bad for you dudes who never have a chance to play without guitarists dictating the scope of everything.
Ah, good times. I cut my musical teeth as a kid playing charts of exactly that type with my piano-playing brother.
Often, though, the guitar chord forms shown are rudimentary and not necessarily the optimal choices, so these days I prefer to have just the chord name. I can often pick up voicings from looking at the piano part, or checking out the recording. As I think Yogi Berra said, you can hear a lot by listening.
An exception might be in some cases where specific and nonobvious voicings are needed, as in some Brazilian music, which I've been doing a lot of over the past 2 years. In some of those charts, they'll put kind of a glossary of voicings used in the song at the top, but then cite only the chord names in the body of the chart.
If you read my post more carefully, you will see that I said I do pay attention to the key – just not the notes once the key is established. And additionally, you will see that I said "almost always," not "always," so of course I know there are times it's more helpful to use a chord name.
Of course you use a note name when calling a key. That's different than calling a change once you're rolling, which is what I am talking about.
And when calling changes by number, you do indeed still use "minor" or "major" when needed. Most commonly, when in a major key, you call a II or a III major, when it would seem it "should" be a minor.
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That was great!
Exactly.
Let's not start thinking we need to "dumb it down" for those that don't know the notes and chords they are playing.
That kind of thinking makes me think a barred D chord is really an F, because it's the same shape as the lowest barre chord that can be played. It's unacceptable.
Don't argue with me when I'm agreeing with you!
I've done it both ways, but you have to know whom you're playing with. Not everybody would even know what III major means in that context. Then again, not everybody would know what A minor means, either....
So he capos for E just so it's there for the change to that nasty F#. Makes sense I guess.
Maybe in a BAND, but when random people are joining in at an OPEN JAM, you are indeed a moron if you don't clue them in that E is not E.
True. My singer plays acoustic guitar and calls a Bm a Bb. He's actually a drummer but we won't go there. It irritates the poopie out of me, but I'm not going to stop playing with him. He writes good songs, has a good voice, and we have fun. I just correct him so everyone knows what he's actually playing.
I play with guitarists with capos. So far it has had no bearing on what or how I play. If they called the new chord by the old name that would seem to only help out someone else with a capo. I've never found the need to use one on bass.
Jazz gigs are always tuned standard. As far as I know, so are orchestra gigs, big band gigs, and bluegrass gigs. I hate Eb tuning - it doesn't sound right to me. I don't have perfect pitch, but I do have really good relative pitch. I can play in flat keys - "Misty" should be in Eb. "Green Dolphin Street" should be in F. And so on...different keys sound different. If you can't hear the difference, you may not hear very well. Okay, throw stuff now!
