From Dan Haerle's web-site.
First the disclaimer.
Here is Dan's sheet for the Polychord-Scale relationship.
Check, please, how Dan is writing those polychords.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
From Dan Haerle's web-site.
First the disclaimer.
Here is Dan's sheet for the Polychord-Scale relationship.
Check, please, how Dan is writing those polychords.
@Whousedtoplay all good. It looks like that's Dan's take on things from whatever era it was written. We think about a number of these things differently, but on the bandstand it has never even come up, whether it's was me playing his charts or his playing mine. When in doubt about the particular chord symbol, we usually just talk it out to get the other person's intention into our own vernacular. 
My own take on poly chords tends to be limited to triads over a bass note, as below:
Other than that, I don't see too many discrepancies. I just prefer to think in terms of "possibilities" rather than "answers". But then I wasn't writing a book, either, and my aim for the intended student audience has always been something along the lines of "there are 3-4 empirically correct notes in any slash chord, and then there are notes in between. Those notes in between will determined by context and the subjective interpretation of each person who sings/plays them. Find your own "in the cracks" notes and use them until you hear something different, then play that."
The following is from a tune I wrote several years ago in honor of David Baker. We played it on two of the Aebersold faculty concerts that year. I do remember that we had to have a discussion in the band about to interpret some of the slash chords both on the head, and during the solos.
We notate things as we think best in the way that makes the most sense to our brains. When in doubt about someone else's charts, I always first look for a pre-existing recording and listen to that, then ask the composer (if possible), then just go with what my ears tell me is the best way to interpret the written symbols.
My own take on poly chords tends to be limited to triads over a bass note, as below:
Other than that, I don't see too many discrepancies. I just prefer to think in terms of "possibilities" rather than "answers". But then I wasn't writing a book, either, and my aim for the intended student audience has always been something along the lines of "there are 3-4 empirically correct notes in any slash chord, and then there are notes in between. Those notes in between will determined by context and the subjective interpretation of each person who sings/plays them. Find your own "in the cracks" notes and use them until you hear something different, then play that."
The following is from a tune I wrote several years ago in honor of David Baker. We played it on two of the Aebersold faculty concerts that year. I do remember that we had to have a discussion in the band about to interpret some of the slash chords both on the head, and during the solos.
We notate things as we think best in the way that makes the most sense to our brains. When in doubt about someone else's charts, I always first look for a pre-existing recording and listen to that, then ask the composer (if possible), then just go with what my ears tell me is the best way to interpret the written symbols.
See my apology in #44 above.
(Also - I don't endorse Mr. Haerle's system of nomenclature - this is just a result of how I was taught and learned Harmony. FYI/TMI.)
That's what usually happens between normal musicians.
Once again, I truly admire your Harmony knowledge based on solid fundamental musical principals.
I wish this were true. Sometimes "jazz theory macho" prevents this from happening... but it's what should happen if there is a question, IMO.
Your notation is to show “easy” chord inversions, most probably, recommended due to the melody’s notes.@Whousedtoplay all good. It looks like that's Dan's take on things from whatever era it was written. We think about a number of these things differently, but on the bandstand it has never even come up, whether it's was me playing his charts or his playing mine. When in doubt about the particular chord symbol, we usually just talk it out to get the other person's intention into our own vernacular.
My own take on poly chords tends to be limited to triads over a bass note, as below:
View attachment 3031209
Other than that, I don't see too many discrepancies. I just prefer to think in terms of "possibilities" rather than "answers". But then I wasn't writing a book, either, and my aim for the intended student audience has always been something along the lines of "there are 3-4 empirically correct notes in any slash chord, and then there are notes in between. Those notes in between will determined by context and the subjective interpretation of each person who sings/plays them. Find your own "in the cracks" notes and use them until you hear something different, then play that."
The following is from a tune I wrote several years ago in honor of David Baker. We played it on two of the Aebersold faculty concerts that year. I do remember that we had to have a discussion in the band about to interpret some of the slash chords both on the head, and during the solos.
View attachment 3031224
We notate things as we think best in the way that makes the most sense to our brains. When in doubt about someone else's charts, I always first look for a pre-existing recording and listen to that, then ask the composer (if possible), then just go with what my ears tell me is the best way to interpret the written symbols.
What notation do you use for polychords?
The answer is always "it depends". If I'm writing to get the voicing on the melody, I would be more likely to put a specific thing like "E/C" or as in the above, Dadd9/F#. When it comes to a chord sheet for improvising, I would more likely write the E/C as "Cma7#5" or the notational equivalent. Basically whatever I feel gets the main thrust across for a given purpose. Sometimes harmonic voicings get written out for melody arrangements when I want only that specific voicing, but I try to do that as little as possible because it keeps great players like Dan and Steve Allee and Gabe Evens from seasoning to taste, and often times their seasonings turn out to be better than my original recipe!
Chris, I try to avoid inserting myself into these kind of discussions although I usually read them. Your chart and table were really great and made me recall and remember many things that, at this point, for me, just seem to be part of being a working musician.
I do have a question regarding a scale used by many modern jazzers: Sometimes called the "Super Locrian" It seems to me in this scale the 4th tone is natural not sharped. Is the correct? so C super Locrian in the key of Db would use an F natural instead of a Gb/F#. This works for me on II, V sequences as well as other options and obviously provides some great color tones; b9, #9, #5. does this seem about right?
Hmmm...
Then the composer should be consistent and name "a BbTriad over a BTriad" - "Bmaj7#9#11" (as he did earlier in the chart for this type of chord.)
Yes?
No?
Thanks.
According to Jamey Aebersold (see footnote 2 at the bottom of the 2nd page), the Super Locrian scale is synonymous with the Diminished Whole Tone aka "Altered" scale. Like you, I prefer the natural 4 sound to the #4, but I've never seen that as a traditionally codified scale. To me, I think of it as the 5th mode of a scale I personally call "bebop minor", but again that's just my own personal way to remember it. But like you, I like the sound of that scale because it gives players a note collection that can be used over an entire minor iiØ-V7-i. Some theorists don't like this idea, which is also fine - I don't see it a zero sum binary sort of contest or issue.
EDIT: added hyperlink to jamey's pdf
Last edited:
Yes, I agree. But, I interpret them a bit differently. If I see a "Bb triad over B triad", I would interpret it as "play these tones only", do not add any other tones (on a chord instrument), and I would stick to a B in the bass. If I see a "Bma7(#9#11)" I might add other tones, and play other tones from the chord in the bass.
If Trey and I are advocating the same thing, he's talking about a scale that goes C-Db-Eb-E-F-G-Ab-Bb-C. If not, then... D'oh!
But I can't bring myself to use the term "Super Locrian", mostly because it brings to mind some version of the following:
But I can't bring myself to use the term "Super Locrian", mostly because it brings to mind some version of the following:
I think it's more important to understand and be able to use the scale than over intellectualize it. As I said to Chris, I really try to stay out of these discussions because they become, in Chris's words "jazz theory macho". JP calls this scale the "jazz melodic minor".. Call it whatever you want. It's just a collection of notes that gives you some great color tones. If you think of the C Super Locrian, scale of Db major, not just the pure locrian, the 5th (gb) in this case is flatted making it an F. You can also think of it as a sharp 4th still an F. Not really a big deal...Now I'm tired. Too much talk! Suffice to say Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea and so many more use this scale in many wonderful ways. Like Chris says, great to use it on II half dim.-V7-I type turnarounds and/or cadences. OK, over and out. That's my story and I'm stickin to it! 
John Goldsby
Supporting Member
- Mar 4, 2003
- 1,172
- 2,160
- Disclosures
- Bassist @ WDR Big Band Cologne, Discover Double Bass, Conservatorium Maastricht, NL
@Don Kasper — real quick, here are the two spots in question. Juan told me that he wrote Bb/B because that was closer to the exact voicing the horns are playing in that spot. If he wrote Bdim(maj7), then there would be too many options to muck up the sound he wants.
The EbMaj7#9 looks like this in the piano part:
The EbMaj7#9 looks like this in the piano part:
Glad to hear this, it is consistent with my interpretation.
John Goldsby
Supporting Member
- Mar 4, 2003
- 1,172
- 2,160
- Disclosures
- Bassist @ WDR Big Band Cologne, Discover Double Bass, Conservatorium Maastricht, NL
Back to my current real-life example of an Maj7(#9), you can hear the chord — and many others — in this live-stream we just did.
For example, in the video below at 29:43, there's a bar of EbMaj7(#9). (Be sure to click the bottom video on the page — there are two parts to the concert. Choose, Part 2 for this example)
Invalid Link Removed (Click the lower video on the page — Part 2)
The composition starts at 25:18, the excerpt below starts at 29:06. That four-bar section is in the G harmonic-minor palette: G-(add9), EbMaj7#9, D7/F#, G-(add9)/F, etc. (see the chart below):
For example, in the video below at 29:43, there's a bar of EbMaj7(#9). (Be sure to click the bottom video on the page — there are two parts to the concert. Choose, Part 2 for this example)
Invalid Link Removed (Click the lower video on the page — Part 2)
The composition starts at 25:18, the excerpt below starts at 29:06. That four-bar section is in the G harmonic-minor palette: G-(add9), EbMaj7#9, D7/F#, G-(add9)/F, etc. (see the chart below):
You know, I have really warmed up to this thread. It’s really gotten me thinking about slash chords and notation.
EDIT: Same with C/F. I’ve never seen that as a substitute for Fmaj9, even though it has the same function, and very similar sound.
- It is very clear when it is a chord member under the slash. E/G#, E/B, E/D Sure. All notated inversions. Pretty straightforward so far.
- When the chord and the bass note fulfill another function. C/D functions like a D dominant; C/F functions like a Fmaj9.
- I don’t like when it’s just an alternate spelling. F/D is not just another way to write a Dm7. It is not clearer, or even easier to write it that way.
- I have never thought or been taught or told that the note under the slash was or could be a triad. I have never seen a polychord notated.
EDIT: Same with C/F. I’ve never seen that as a substitute for Fmaj9, even though it has the same function, and very similar sound.
Last edited:
Agreed, but it's justifiable in some circumstances, like "F -> F/E -> F/D -> F/C". Easier to read. (Same with mi +5-chords (the 5 is usually omitted), for example Cmi -> Cmi+ -> Cmi6 is easier to read than Cmi -> Ab/C -> Cmi6).
