Double Bass The Real Book

[TroyK]

Troy-
Here's my thinking: first of all, 50 tunes is not enough; a good bassist should probably know 150 at least, imo, to go out and do gigs and feel comfortable that he/she doesn't know "Dance Cadaverous" by Wayne Shorter...you know what I mean? That includes lots of Standards, Ellington, Miles, plenty of Bird/Diz, and some Trane, Joe Henderson, and Chick.

In my world, at least, 150 tunes is not even a good starting point for a working bassist. Why not? Because I don't only do jazz gigs on double bass. There are also 50's rockabilly gigs, country gigs, western swing gigs, oldies gigs, bluegrass gigs, folk gigs, weddings, bar mitzvahs, funerals and supermarket openings, etc... (And that doesn't include the gigs I do on electric bass). I mean, it's great if you know a bunch of Wayne Shorter songs, but I don't think the WW II vets I played for on Saturday would care...

So, here are two posts that started bringing me down. Reading back, you probably meant nothing by yours. I think my coin of the term "Johnson Measuring" which you later told me was ****in' rude, was more toward Dave's resume post than yours, but you can see how we got there, right?

I posted that among a bunch of other things, I wanted to give up the Real Book as a crutch because I thought it would good for me as a musician and Dave starts telling us (somehow in response) that "150 tunes is not even a good starting point" based on his heavy gig schedule through multiple musical formats.

I never said that I thought I only needed to know 40 songs. I know more than 40 songs now. If we want to count pop songs, Rolling Stones Songs, Cannon in D, Hava Nagila, I don't know how many I know. Not interested in the contest. I'm a jazz player now. I want to know 500 jazz tunes. I want to be able to transpose in my head on the fly or play from ear something from a musicial I remember seeing. I want that! I'm going to do my work. A step in that for me, I've decided, is throwing away my crutch. I think that I can do that after I've torn about 40 pages out of it. Mr. Clayton says I can do it now. Without learning those 40 tunes and I'm sure he's right, but he's more sure of that that I am, so this is the path I'm taking.

I appreciate everyone's advice and encouragement, including yours MusicMan, and yeah, was sort of bummed by the trend forming in response to my post about how far from other people's standards I was falling. It's very different than the advice and encouragement that I've been getting from people who know my playing that I'm doing the right thing and am closer than I think. I'm not going to stop there, but this is a big step for me in my mind.

Again, reading back, I don't think you meant it that way. But, I reacted to the combination of those posts and you took up the defense, so you and I ended up fighting about it. Let Dave defend himself next time, assuming he hasn't just moved onto some other thread and forgotten about us.

We just got off on the wrong foot. Sorry about that. Let's bury the hatchet.

Troy

 

[musicman5string]

Cool Bro; no hard feelings.

 

[.matthew e wengerd.]

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Troy - back when I was first starting out, I used a bit of Sam's method, with the book ("Pocket Changes", in my case) on the floor. At a certain stage, it's more of a safety net than anything else, and nothing says you have to look at it if you don't need it...and you only even need to open it when you don't know tune X. Later, I discovered that learning melodies was where it was at for me. Once I knew the melody, I could sus out the basic harmony and not be thrown by the personal substitutions of various players. I'm sure you've seen my tune list and repertoire sheet attachments by now, which is the centerpiece of my practice habits these days. Let me know if you want a copy of the tune list excel document, I'd be happy to send it.

Learning tunes is extremely daunting at first, and I know of plenty of seasoned pros (some even faculty at the camps) who know "most of" a ton of tunes, but who have holes of 2 or 3 bars. I certainly don't think it's a crime to own fake books as a reference for checking up on "senior moment measures", or for learning more obscure tunes in the shed. I have a large collection of fake books that I use all the time for this, and if there's a tune that I'm trying to learn that I don't have a recording of, I'll usually try to sing through all of the different parts from the book, then put the book away and play from the aural memory of the singing. That at least gets the ink away from your eyes and into your ears, which is half the battle.

Just a couple of weeks ago, Scott Wendholt called "Along Came Betty" on a gig, and I didn't know it well enough to just dive in. I opened the book, laid it inside the piano, read through the first chorus or two, then didn't look back at it. I may get some **** for that from a few crusty old mother****ers, but I can live with that. After the gig, I made a note to learn it. For me, at least, that's how the list expands.

It's also interesting to play in other cities, or with players from other cities/countries, and discover that different short lists of tunes are "the basics" for different places. Everybody in Louisville knows "Firm Roots", "Nothing Personal", and "I've Never Been in Love Before", but call those tunes in another town, and lots of guys shake their heads and look apologetic. Guys in Cincy seem to know "Moon Alley" and "Sail Away". It's weird how that works.

 

[TroyK]

I'd love to see that list, Chris.

I know what you mean about the market nicheness of the standards list. I've lived a few places and you definitely recognize different short lists.

Cool that Moon Alley is on anyone's jam list. There's a trumpet player I know who is into Tom Harrell, so I know a hand full of those tunes, but they never get called socially. Great song writer that one.

Troy

 

[Marcus Johnson]

Re: "Along Came Betty"... I played that one with Jon Hendricks, and we were running it during a sound check. I remember him reading the paper on the first pass, and then scatting a solo over the tune, and he turned around and said "Damn...who wrote these changes?!".... point being, nobody is immune to the need to go to the book once in awhile. Even one of the greatest improvisational jazz singers of all time.

Of course, he nailed it on the gig.

 

[musicman5string]

That's a great story....and a hard tune.

 

[Dave Martin]

I posted that among a bunch of other things, I wanted to give up the Real Book as a crutch because I thought it would good for me as a musician and Dave starts telling us (somehow in response) that "150 tunes is not even a good starting point" based on his heavy gig schedule through multiple musical formats.

I never said that I thought I only needed to know 40 songs. I know more than 40 songs now. If we want to count pop songs, Rolling Stones Songs, Cannon in D, Hava Nagila, I don't know how many I know. Not interested in the contest. I'm a jazz player now. I want to know 500 jazz tunes. I want to be able to transpose in my head on the fly or play from ear something from a musicial I remember seeing.
Again, reading back, I don't think you meant it that way. But, I reacted to the combination of those posts and you took up the defense, so you and I ended up fighting about it. Let Dave defend himself next time, assuming he hasn't just moved onto some other thread and forgotten about us.

Gosh, I wasn't trying to imply either that I havea 'heavy gig schedule' or that I know a zillion tunes - I'll use the Real Book, I'll read out of the leaders' book, I'll watch the the keyboard player or guitar player's hands, I'll ask for changes from whever is standing closest, and if none of those options are available, I'll make mistakes while I'm trying to learn the dang song on the bandstand.

I was reading this thread and saw the numbers 40 and 150 offered as though that were the number of tunes a bass player needed to know, and that was what I responded to. I never intended to imply that what you were doing in freeing yourself from the Real Book wasn't a a good idea; The point I apparently didn't make was that while 40 tunes would be a start, but wouldn't be enough, if you were a working bassist. Nor did I mean to imply that I've got all of the necessary tunes under my fingers (I don't - and certainly not the standards repertoire), just that whatever number you choose, it's not gonna be enough.

Obviously, I missed the part of your post where you said that you were a jazz player - I'm just a guy who plays whenever anyone calls with work, much like any other prostitute (though unlike me, there are some things that prostitutes WON'T do for money).

In any case, you've set yourself a worthy goal; good luck with it.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'd love to see that list, Chris.

Send me an email at [email protected] - the TB email doesn't support attachments.

 

[bassbuddie]

Than you Troy for this thread. I started yesterday to learn a song whitout the fake book, only my ears and piano. I made some mistake but I internalized the song.

Usually, I would take the fake book, play it a lot, memorize it and forget it the next day. This time, I did not forget it, I can sing it, I can ear it, and I know where the song is going.

thank you.
(I speak french, if you don't understand, read the message upside down.)

 

[Marc Piane]

Since iTunes I have been downloading 3 versions, as different as possible, of the same tune. I learn the melody by ear and learn what different guys are doing with the changes. I even do this with tunes I already know. It is fun to see what different cats do with the same tune.

I also transcribe a solo or two but I don't write it down. I heard from a clinician that you can internalize a solo better if you don't write it down. It makes you pay closer attention to all the stuff that paper can't communicate.

The bottom line is that you will play tunes better and be freer to go places with them if they are part of you rather than something you are just reading.

 

[Clay_Bass]

Ive been working on this method for the past two days . I ripped out the pages I knew( Im keeping them though so incase I need to learn the more obscure tunes on the oppiste page I have them) Anyways Ive compiled a list of tunes I already know and everytime I go to practice I play a chorus of each tune on the list to keep it in my head.(this will be hard when Ive got tons of tunes but by then I wont need to go over the tunes I have now as much) Anyways thanks for sharing this as Ive been needing something to push me twords memorizing songs instead of reading changes.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Funny, the last video I saw of the Basie Basie band, they were reading. For that matter, so was the Chicago Symphony, the musicians doing Fiddler and Spamalot on Broadway...

I think I'm done here.

The Real Book? I don't think so.

You (and some others) don't seem to understand the difference between reading an arrangement or a part and having to rely on a lead sheet to get through a standard harmony. Are we at least clear on this? Jazz only or not, THAT'S all that Troy is talking about.

I don't really know how many tunes I know, I do know that there's a bunch that I can get through if the piano player knows them. Gimme the key, the first chord and the key center of the bridge and count it off. That won't work with PINOCCHIO, but with STANDARD tunes from the repertoire of Broadway and the American Popular Song (as defined by Alec Wilder), no problem.

And you don't get there without work; work that ISN'T trying to 'memorize" tunes but by working on your ear so that you can hear patterns of resolution. Cause we aren't really talking about trying to get through a clubdate here, we're talking about trying to follow that line your imagination is creating in response to its immediate aural environment.

 

[TroyK]

Exactly. Precisely. Nothing to add.

Thanks for being the voice of clarity, Ed.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I exist but to serve...

 

[SLaPiNFuNK]

Alot of the transcriptions in the real books are wrong... they use substitute chord changes and sometimes different melodies.. if you transcribe on your own, you get a better understanding of how the tune is structured as well as learn to incorporate the melodies into improv through different chrod changes etc (quoting)

One book that is great for a bass player is Pocket Changes... Its only Chord Changes, so you can use it on gigs and its changes are correct (99.9% of the time)...

 

[Huy Nguyen]

As a near-total n00b, I'd like to reinforce again that not all the masters know all the tunes. I'm fortunate enough to go to a Jam Session and be able to play with some old crusty MF's and ex-NYers that can play more in one phrase than my entire solo. Old crusty masters... I have to admit attempting to keep up with Eddie Marshall at my level was such a thrill even if I sucked at it. Yet it was encouraging when a beginning singer comes up to these old-timers and calls Lush Life, to which one of them asks to borrow my RB. Heh.

They all have holes in their repetoires too. Just not many of them.

Yes the charts are faulty, and not to mention that as artists we need to know when and how to use subs too. So the charts are only useful up to a certain extent. I guess this all falls into what Ed is talking about.

Anyways, I would like to suggest my method of chart tracking - it's not so destructive of the RB. I use a 3-ring binder with sheet protectors and slide in all the stuff that I've been working on. I just photocopy whatever tune I'm working on or don't know so well and stick it in the binder. Anything else I reach for the RB as a last resort. As a rule I reach for the binder first, the RB stays in the bag for emergencies. After learning the tune cold, I just yank it out of the binder.

I do kinda as Sam suggests, but mainly I look away from the book and concentrate on my playing and connecting with the other players if I got the tune down. The binder is there as a measure of insurance - a crutch. If someone calls something I know cold or well enough, the binder stays closed.

Some day I'm going to forget some tunes and will need a reference so the RB needs to stick around. I just have a system that I feel is weaning me off of the lead sheets. I'm going through the more "common" standards from A-Z - some 50 tunes. I've finished with the B's so far and now Cherokee is up to bat. I'm thinking this process will be endless so I dont' care if it's 50 or 5000 in whatever X number of months. Just gotta keep expanding that repetoire, one tune at a time.

Just gotta keep on keepin' on.

 

[Paul Warburton]

As a near-total n00b, I'd like to reinforce again that not all the masters know all the tunes. I'm fortunate enough to go to a Jam Session and be able to play with some old crusty MF's and ex-NYers that can play more in one phrase than my entire solo. Old crusty masters... I have to admit attempting to keep up with Eddie Marshall at my level was such a thrill even if I sucked at it. Yet it was encouraging when a beginning singer comes up to these old-timers and calls Lush Life, to which one of them asks to borrow my RB. Heh.

They all have holes in their repetoires too. Just not many of them.
Just gotta keep expanding that repetoire, one tune at a time.

Just gotta keep on keepin' on.

Excellent point diddy! What happens with us OLD CRUSTYS is, as in Lush Life, we learn the tunes, then nobody calls that tune again for 3-4 years. by then, we've forgotten them. Not to mention that there are 3 different sets of changes for each damn tune.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

What happens with us OLD CRUSTYS is, as in Lush Life, we learn the tunes, then nobody calls that tune again for 3-4 years. by then, we've forgotten them. Not to mention that there are 3 different sets of changes for each damn tune.

Amen to that. Especially tunes like "Lush Life" and "Round Midnight". I don't think I've ever met two piano players who harmonized "Round Midnight" the same way.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Amen to that. Especially tunes like "Lush Life" and "Round Midnight". I don't think I've ever met two piano players who harmonized "Round Midnight" the same way.

Not to continue to flog an expired equine quadruped, but that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. If yer playing ROUND MIDNIGHT and all you've been doing is playing the REAL BOOK version and that ain't what the piano player is using for changes you're screwed. If all you have done is MEMORISE the changes that you learned, yer STILL screwed.

But if you've internalised whatever version you've learned AND have been working on your ear, you hear where the agreements and disagreements are, you hear WHAT they are and by the 2nd chorus you guys are playing together. And you can hear when somebody is suggesting a different direction altogether...