On the topic of the Real Book.....I was playing an outside gig the other day, and I was reading the good book. The wind picked up, and blew my page around halfway through the second chorus. At first I just played time walking through the basic key of the song, but after awhile, I could hear what the chords were, or at least what I thought they were. It was pretty liberating. Dave Liebman came to Humber once and told us, "Chords are overated". He was right I think.
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Double Bass The Real Book
- Thread starter TroyK
- Start date
If you're ever at a club or restaurant and see a jazz group playing where one of them is reading out of the book, like the bass player or whatever, and some are not, like the horn player, and you feel like being mischievous, request "Misty".....then pull up a chair, get some popcorn, and watch a disaster unfold.
S
SteveS
Guest
"Was that supposed to be subtle? It wasn't, and back atcha."
Did you imagine I wouldn't find your picture insulting? I replied to your insult. Glad you got it. Communication at last.
"Let me be more plainspoken: when you preface your remarks with a phrase like, "I have been occasionally checking out the progress of this discussion. Now I'm into "my cups"enough to enter in. ",
Dutch courage necessary to enter the arena where so much blood can flow. A single glass of Zinfandel. Next time I wish to utter an unpopular opinion, it'll take a tankerfull of Jack Daniels. a beverage whch observations of Janis Joplin's habits have rendered forever undrinkable for me. For those of you demanding literal-only statements, that means that I realize that entering a "discussion" was a mistake I won't repeat. I'd sooner leap into a pack of snarling dogs. No, that's just what I seem to have done.
" and then follow that laudable introduction with novellas that bob and weave enough to leave little doubt as to the utter sincerity of its meaning,"
I enjoy the sound of language and the ambiguities and complexities of meaning it can create. Not everything is best stated with a single declarative statement. I am flattered sir, and thank you.
"you can expect a little ribbing".
I didn't sense "ribbing", as that would have contained the second person address (you). Instead I looked at the third person (he) which is ridicule, not ribbing.
"Perhaps if you would try posting at some point when you are a bit more removed from the contents of "your cups" (with the possible exception of those of the caffeinated variety), your posts might be less prone to misinterpretation."
Only the first post involved the zinf. Rereading that post after this morning's double esspresso, I find it an accurate, and clear but not necessarily simple.
"As they stand, more than a few members of this forum seem to be having trouble grasping any clear direction of meaning from several of them. You seem to suggest that the reason for this lies in some inherent lack of perceptiveness on the reader's part."
I don't mind being misunderstood. That can be corrected if someone cares enough to ask. I do mind wild-dog-pack behavior where laws of civility drop with the first scent of blood.
I think some can sense a sense of fun, and some expect utter sincerity. I have no problem with anyone's perceptiveness here. Not everything is for everyone.
"Wherever you go, there you are"
Ah, this is a very, very simple thought clearly stated. Still I don't know that you should expect all to adhere to the "bumper sticker" school of writing.
Did you imagine I wouldn't find your picture insulting? I replied to your insult. Glad you got it. Communication at last.
"Let me be more plainspoken: when you preface your remarks with a phrase like, "I have been occasionally checking out the progress of this discussion. Now I'm into "my cups"enough to enter in. ",
Dutch courage necessary to enter the arena where so much blood can flow. A single glass of Zinfandel. Next time I wish to utter an unpopular opinion, it'll take a tankerfull of Jack Daniels. a beverage whch observations of Janis Joplin's habits have rendered forever undrinkable for me. For those of you demanding literal-only statements, that means that I realize that entering a "discussion" was a mistake I won't repeat. I'd sooner leap into a pack of snarling dogs. No, that's just what I seem to have done.
" and then follow that laudable introduction with novellas that bob and weave enough to leave little doubt as to the utter sincerity of its meaning,"
I enjoy the sound of language and the ambiguities and complexities of meaning it can create. Not everything is best stated with a single declarative statement. I am flattered sir, and thank you.
"you can expect a little ribbing".
I didn't sense "ribbing", as that would have contained the second person address (you). Instead I looked at the third person (he) which is ridicule, not ribbing.
"Perhaps if you would try posting at some point when you are a bit more removed from the contents of "your cups" (with the possible exception of those of the caffeinated variety), your posts might be less prone to misinterpretation."
Only the first post involved the zinf. Rereading that post after this morning's double esspresso, I find it an accurate, and clear but not necessarily simple.
"As they stand, more than a few members of this forum seem to be having trouble grasping any clear direction of meaning from several of them. You seem to suggest that the reason for this lies in some inherent lack of perceptiveness on the reader's part."
I don't mind being misunderstood. That can be corrected if someone cares enough to ask. I do mind wild-dog-pack behavior where laws of civility drop with the first scent of blood.
I think some can sense a sense of fun, and some expect utter sincerity. I have no problem with anyone's perceptiveness here. Not everything is for everyone.
"Wherever you go, there you are"
Ah, this is a very, very simple thought clearly stated. Still I don't know that you should expect all to adhere to the "bumper sticker" school of writing.
Steve, I believe that use of the [ QUOTE ] markups available would improve the readability of your posts, at least for me. Your use of un-referenced quotes (signified by quotation marks alone) alternating with your responses sans any other formatting clarification make it difficult for me to follow your posts. Perhaps it is the same for others?
Steve, isn't your point something like "hey, sometimes the Real Book is useful and isn't necessarily always evil"? A clear statement like that walks into this den of wolves looking maybe like it's food but basically will get passed over -- too much practical truth in that. It doesn't walk in looking like it might be half a dozen pork chops.
SteveS said:
You are one obtuse MFer, steve.
This is course is meant as a term of brotherhood only, and should not reflect on steve as a person.
Brent Nussey said:
Thank you, Brent. I didn't mean to start anything, but I proably should have known better. Nasty discussion aside, it is something that I'm continuing down and it's opening some things up for me in a nice way. I had gig this afternoon and I think I read maybe 3 charts. I enables me to focus musically on other things, which can only be good for me.
Scott said:
Exactly! I found that I was continuing to look at charts long after I really needed to be. This was keeping me from switching my eyes off and switching my ears on. That's why I've been tearing the pages out, I can't chicken out on stage and open it just as a crutch. I did find myself glancing at the trumpet's chart a couple of times today (transposing down a whole step), just to check the resolution or where the bridge goes or what note the melody starts on or something. Then I sung the movement in my head, listenned to the drummer (who was great today, by the way) and thought about locking in with him or I listenned to the piano voicings or the soloist to think about where they were going and how what I was playing did or didn't relate to it.
It's good. It's a bit intimidating, but it's getting easier. I will say that between this and the transcribing I've been doing, I can measurably track the progress of my ear. Things that I have had to read, I usually read through a few choruses and then can follow for the rest of the song. That's new to me.
Got a lifetime of work ahead of me.
On topic, I played with a clarinet player tonight who I almost never play with, and who calls some tunes that don't normally get called by my generation. I didn't have any books with me. Fumbled my way through "Witchcraft" ( a tune I never play) for a chorus or two and then was fine. Likewise "Estate' ", which shouldn't have been easier but somehow was. I'm pretty sure that if I'd had the books, none of it would have sunk in at all. Troy - you're on the good path, bro. Ear training on the job is the best training there is.
Steve, thanks for the nice words...at the risk of being egotistic and self-centered, and, due to the fact that these compliments were aimed at my work, the words you used in making these statements, to me, were far more clear and to the point of making a whole lot of sense than all your other words put together.SteveS said:
As you know, trying to draw a picture of someone's personality via an electric device is not at all fair, and I think that that's exactly what's happening here, and at the risk of this sounding like a challenge, how about you putting something up on our SAMPLER? I think you're right on the money when you say, in simple terms that the music you put out is YOU.
Please forgive me for seeming a bit cold hearted...
So, let me (us) know if you would have any interest in putting some of your work uo on our SAMLER.
PS Steve, your use of the term MR. is only one thing that denotes a lack of warmth. How about: MY DARLING.??
S
SteveS
Guest
>>As you know, trying to draw a picture of someone's personality via an electric device is not at all fair, and I think that that's exactly what's happening here, and at the risk of this sounding like a challenge, how about you putting something up on our SAMPLER? I think you're right on the money when you say, in simple terms that the music you put out is YOU.
Please forgive me for seeming a bit cold hearted...
So, let me (us) know if you would have any interest in putting some of your work uo on our SAMLER.
PS Steve, your use of the term MR. is only one thing that denotes a lack of warmth. How about: MY DARLING.??[/QUOTE]<<
My Dearest Darling Mr. Warburton,
I have a dial up modem and don't know how I could send (nor do I want to, considering the reception mere words have recieved) music on-line. It is slow enough to download music from this site, that I simply don't do it. In fact I'd be nuts to expose my pork-scented soul to this pack of snarling carnivores. Furthermore, as someone earning a livelyhood off music, I can't financially afford the loss of self-confidence the now inevitable negative comments would produce. I would love to send you a CD of some of my playing, for your listening. If you'd send me a mailing address, I'll send one off. I think my email address is available on this site.
XXXXXs
Steve
Please forgive me for seeming a bit cold hearted...
So, let me (us) know if you would have any interest in putting some of your work uo on our SAMLER.
PS Steve, your use of the term MR. is only one thing that denotes a lack of warmth. How about: MY DARLING.??[/QUOTE]<<
My Dearest Darling Mr. Warburton,
I have a dial up modem and don't know how I could send (nor do I want to, considering the reception mere words have recieved) music on-line. It is slow enough to download music from this site, that I simply don't do it. In fact I'd be nuts to expose my pork-scented soul to this pack of snarling carnivores. Furthermore, as someone earning a livelyhood off music, I can't financially afford the loss of self-confidence the now inevitable negative comments would produce. I would love to send you a CD of some of my playing, for your listening. If you'd send me a mailing address, I'll send one off. I think my email address is available on this site.
XXXXXs
Steve
Are y'all still talking about the real book? Or has the thread become a discussion of SteveS's admiration for the writing style of James Joyce? 
Hey Troy -
What a courageous goal you have set for yourself! Good luck!!
Being a great fan of recycling I would recommend you lend your Real Book to a piano player -- you'll NEVER see it again!
A piano playing friend* of mine has been encouraging me for years to play without reading charts. I THINK about it alot, however I still use charts as a crutch. I agree with others here that reading gets in the way of the truly creative process in jazz. hEAR. I'm working at not reading by playing to CDs in the practice room, but dang if I'm brave enuff to do it on the bandstand. I always peek over the pianists shoulder. If your gonna be brave enuff to try then so am I!
What I find peculiar is in my Top40 days playing 5 or 6 hours (or more) no one used charts ever. Of course that's rock which features more patterned lines so it's a little easier. But chords are chords...
Thanks for a great thread and another push in a good direction!
*Shameless Name Dropping Dept: My bud, Steve Christofferson, was teaching jazz composition at the Centrum Festival in PT. Was wondering if you took his class? Great player! Funny cat!
What a courageous goal you have set for yourself! Good luck!!
Being a great fan of recycling I would recommend you lend your Real Book to a piano player -- you'll NEVER see it again!
A piano playing friend* of mine has been encouraging me for years to play without reading charts. I THINK about it alot, however I still use charts as a crutch. I agree with others here that reading gets in the way of the truly creative process in jazz. hEAR. I'm working at not reading by playing to CDs in the practice room, but dang if I'm brave enuff to do it on the bandstand. I always peek over the pianists shoulder. If your gonna be brave enuff to try then so am I!
What I find peculiar is in my Top40 days playing 5 or 6 hours (or more) no one used charts ever. Of course that's rock which features more patterned lines so it's a little easier. But chords are chords...
Thanks for a great thread and another push in a good direction!
*Shameless Name Dropping Dept: My bud, Steve Christofferson, was teaching jazz composition at the Centrum Festival in PT. Was wondering if you took his class? Great player! Funny cat!
Hey Troy,
I, too, was involved in a master class with John Clayton, and he talked about the same things that you mentioned. It was only for two days, but I have had it in the back of my mind to eventually just not need the Real Book.
Unfortunately, I have been playing with this piano player who is so Real Book bound he cannot play Autumn Leaves without it. He got busy with other stuff, and I am getting that it has been detrimental to play with these kinds of folks.
I probably know about 100 tunes, more or less, about 40 if you want to include the melody and this thread is full of good ideas to get things going.
One good thing I did this summer was ask a busy, local gigging bassist for a list of the most requested tunes, so I have a solid list of 50+ tunes now to add to my repertoire.
So, off to the shed.
I, too, was involved in a master class with John Clayton, and he talked about the same things that you mentioned. It was only for two days, but I have had it in the back of my mind to eventually just not need the Real Book.
Unfortunately, I have been playing with this piano player who is so Real Book bound he cannot play Autumn Leaves without it. He got busy with other stuff, and I am getting that it has been detrimental to play with these kinds of folks.
I probably know about 100 tunes, more or less, about 40 if you want to include the melody and this thread is full of good ideas to get things going.
One good thing I did this summer was ask a busy, local gigging bassist for a list of the most requested tunes, so I have a solid list of 50+ tunes now to add to my repertoire.
So, off to the shed.
ryco said:
The other thing about that is that we learned those pop/rock tunes strictly by ear. No charts to fall back on.
Dave Martin said:Are y'all still talking about the real book? Or has the thread become a discussion of SteveS's admiration for the writing style of James Joyce?
"I love Joyce.... she's my favorite."
-Rodney Dangerfield
