Double Bass The Real Book

[TroyK]

I just got back from a week at the Port Townsend Jazz festival, which included for me a week of master class with John Clayton. He challenged a class I was in years ago to throw away Real Books. I know he’s right for a litany of good reasons and I set a goal that I would mail him mine some day, but I haven’t been able to let it go for a litany of bad reasons.

So, I’ve decided to give myself a deadline for being rid of (completely out of possession of) the thing. That date is January 1, 2007. In the mean time, I’ve started marking tunes in it that I need to know to take some of the calls that I get now. Then I started tearing pages out for the tunes that I thought I could pull off without a chart. This will reduce the temptation to look at it anyway or go back to it. I’m keeping a list on the wall in my practice room of what I’ve torn out so that I can keep playing those tunes with recordings and make sure that I’ve really got them internalized. I’ve got another list next to it of the next batch that I want to rip out. I definitely feel pressure as a result and am working hard on making sure I know these tunes. As long as those pages were in there, I had a crutch.

So, I pulled John aside in Port Townsend and handed him about a dozen charts and explained why. He was happy, encouraged me, but told me he wanted me to go cold turkey. I told him I couldn't and had to take the methadone route. He said he would happily dispose of them for me and wanted more. When I saw him the next day, he held out his hand and I didn't have any for him. I found a few hours and went through another batch that I felt I was close on, played them for about an hour and ripped out another 4 or 5 and gave them to him. He was happy, but encouraged me to kick out-right, told me I could, but was choosing to do it this way. I agreed, but told him that I had to throw it away in pieces. He accepted, but said that he would keep expecting them from me. So, there’s no going back at this point. I have to either keep going with this or avoid Mr. Clayton for the rest of my life.

I won't learn any of these tunes from the Real Book, but will do so from a combination of transcribing from recordings and using proper charts as references. I do plan to keep a few properly edited and published books as reference material, but won't take them to gigs or sessions after this year. If people want me to play a song somewhere that I don't know then they'll have to talk it down to me before they count it off, bring me a chart (preferably a good one) or give me some notice so that I can check it out in advance. I probably also need to not take some of the gigs that I’ve been taking. Kind of like stopping smoking, I’m not sure I can hang out with people who still plan their lives around the book if I expect to stay clean.

I played a gig on Saturday and the leader called a few tunes that I had torn the pages out for. I played them, a little panicked and with a few mistakes the 1st time through the form, but made adjustments the second time through. So, it has begun.

When I've pulled 40 pages or so out of it or January 1, 2007, whichever comes first, I will burn, throw away or hand over my Real Book to John and then that's it. A new era will begin for me.

Just thought I would share.

Troy

 

[Uncletoad]

He challenged a class I was in years ago to throw away Real Books. I know he’s right for a litany of good reasons ...

Explain this more. I'm curious.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

The main problem (as I see it) is that you get way too caught up in the "playing C7 every time right there" cause it says it in the book. Even if you are the only one in the band using that change at that point in time. It's hard to use the harmonci framework of the tune AS a framework if you keep pounding through it according to what's on the page in front of you.


Troy, depending on the gig, you don't really have to stop doing them. You'll just be the guy that doesn't need a book to play them. Guy I do jazz casuals with has a book of mostly standards, he hands it to me, I put it on the stand and never open it.

There ARE piano players who know tunes well enough that they can get me through them by voice leading in some very obvious ways, laying on real vanilla voicings with changes they can tell I'm vague on or (in a worst case scenario) just TELL me the change that I keep not hearing. This is, of course, much harder to do on gigs where the piano player doesn't REALLY know the tune and is playing in a vague way that doens't really communicate the movement of the harmony. And, unfortunately, these are the guys who tend to rely on using books a lot. So, in many ways, it's a Catch-22. So, I feel your pain.

But, the more you do it, the better you get at it and pretty soon you'll be gettig calls form those cats because they are leaning on YOU to get them through the tune./ When your ear is in charge, the lines you play make that much more sense, communicate that much better. They may not know WHY the music seems to sound better and is easier for them to play, they will just know that when you're on the gig, **** seems to go easier.

 

[musicman5string]

Troy-
What John Clayton is saying true, but in it's purest, most ideal form. He's saying use your ears, not your eyes. Sure, that IS what's important, but if you're like me, it's nice to have a book (or books) around for reference, since I don't consider myself to have ears of steel or a concrete memory.
When I was in college, I would learn tunes this way:
-Get as many recorded versions of said tune as possible
-listen intently, singing the melody as best I could
-try to hear what's going on (ii/v's etc.)
-get chart of tune
-sit at piano and play melody/changes
-go to bass, play melody, walk through changes
etc.
Now, I guess I could've skipped the chart, but it helped me when I was doing this, because it would've taken me forever at that point to learn as many tunes.
After a while, I began to realize that ALOT of what's in the book is wrong, be it the melody or changes. So I'd start making my own charts for tunes as best I could. This was a key developement for me. Then I started going on gigs and was more or less able to fake my way through a tune if I didn't know it (not always!)
In the end, it's better to learn tunes by ear, but the main thing is that you do actually KNOW the tune. I don't think you could be taken to task for HOW you learned it. For example, the first Jazz tune I ever learned was "How High The Moon" which I learned out of the real book. Now if I play that tune, no one asks me "Hey, did you learn that by ear or not?" You just play the tune. However, it's standard among jazz musicians to know some things that are NOT in the books; i.e. the Abmin7 Db7 substitution in the 7th bar of "Have You Met Miss Jones"...there are alot of those kinds of things that are not in the books.

It also all depends on what tunes we're talking about; if you wanted to learn "Tones For Jones Bones" you COULD do it by ear, but the chart helped me alot through that one, even though some of it was wrong.
But a tune like "Autumn Leaves" or whatever, that is one you have to learn by ear, because no one I know plays it in Eminor/Gmajor as is written in the book. Also, singers will do that tune in all 12 keys....so something easy like that there's no excuse for not learning by ear.

 

[musicman5string]

Actually, my post sounds like I'm defending using books....but actually I'm not.
In the best of circumstances, learning by ear is best. If you use a chart here and there, it's fine presuming your ears are able to hear things that you need to hear.

 

[TroyK]

I'll just list my reasons and not try to speak directly for anyone else.

It's not really the inaccuracies, because if I know a song, I'll find and play around the inaccuracies. If I don’t know a song and whoever’s gig it is points to a Real Book page, then we’re all going to play them and people who know the song will cringe and people who don’t will not notice. I need to generally move beyond taking those gigs. Up Jumped Spring, for example, is one of the worst charts in the book. But I know how it goes. I still look at it when it gets called anyway because I don’t trust myself. (actually this one was torn out, so I will either play it correctly from memory now or screw it up and come home and revisit it). When I’m playing that with people who are looking at a Real Book Chart, I usually try to point out the big problems with it before we count in and/or listen to what they are playing, maybe I avoid the 3rd in my line if I’m not sure if they’re playing minor or dominant chords.

Had I not gotten a Real Book, if there was not a common book that everyone used, I don't know how I would have every gotten out and started playing. When I was starting and people said basically that you couldn't leave your house until you knew every standard in all 12 keys, I thought it was bull**** and still do. It served its purpose for me. It got me playing with other people. However, it's holding me back, now.

There are tunes that I've been playing for years and still don't know. Evidently, repetition doesn't equate to memorization in this regard. Conversely, there are tunes that I’ve learned in an afternoon and never forgotten. Recently, I’ve had to hand my book over to the piano player for a song that I felt like I ALMOST knew when he didn’t know it at all. Turns out that I did know it and the chart was just a crutch.

When my head is in the chart, then I lose visual connection with the band and some of my concentration gets reassigned to watching the changes go by. When I play things without the chart, then that concentration returns to something else, like the high hat or the piano’s voicings or signals to doubletime or whatever.

Not having a book or music stand gets me closer to that fabled one trip from the car that we all dream of.

Autumn Leaves is an example of something that I practice through all 12 keys. I can’t do that with everything, but there are a few tunes that are worth doing that with. Others are worth taking through 3 or 4 keys.

It’s a crutch for me, it’s keeping me from moving forward musically. There are those who believe that you can play songs that you don’t know at all, just by using your ears. That’s hard for me to imagine about myself, but I do know that there are people who can do it. My plan is just to work really hard and developing the repertoire, pattern recognition and ear to cover the 50 or so most common calls. The things I’m expected to know. I have another set of tunes like Arabia and Totem Pole that I have had memorized for years and play with specific people, but will never get casually called. I just need a standards repertoire. If I’ve got that and someone calls “JuJu” on stage, I can say “I’m sorry I don’t know that one” without feeling like a loser. Then they can sketch it out for me, give me a chart or call something else. Right now, it’s “A Foggy Day”, which I really should know, but don’t because its not one that I would ever call on my own.

There are a lot of tunes in the Real Book that I don’t need to know, like Alfie, for example. So, I’m not trying to learn the whole book. There are also a good amount of tunes that aren’t in the Real Book, like Bye Bye Blackbird and I Thought About You, that I do need to know. Having the book with me on a gig will prevent me from learning these songs. So, I’m giving it up.

I’ll keep other books with charts in them at home for reference and absolutely will use them to help learn new tunes, practice reading, check out changes compared to various recordings, etc.. I just don’t want it at sessions with me any more. That’s all.

Now that I’ve torn those pages out and given them away, they can’t go back. I feel a huge burden to make sure I know and remember those tunes. That in itself is helpful to me and means that I’ll succeed.

There’s my explanation.

Troy

 

[Uncletoad]

Brilliant. I learned something new today.

 

[Dave Martin]

On the other hand (there's always another hand), I'd rather have the band working from a common (even if incorrect in spots) chart, than to listen to them make mistakes.

The audience - that is, folks who pay to see you, or who hire you to play for their party - don't listen as close as you think they do. I've never had a party planner or client come up and say, "You people played a B7 on "50 ways"; the chord is supposed to be a D#7b5...", or "Why are you all using charts?". If they noticed the song at all, they'll say, "Wow, it was cool that you played that Paul Simon song - it's one of my favorites".

 

[TroyK]

I'm not trying to sell it. I've argued for it. I think that, like I said, it served it's purpose for me for a number of years. I remember being excited when I got my first Real Book. It definitely opened doors for me.

I'm just ready to move on. I think it will open my ears, force me to learn things that I was able to avoid learning and open things up in my playing.

Example: A Night in Tunusia is one that I tore out. When I was reading Alone Together a few days later (which I done about a million times before), I noticed that the chords on the bridges of those two songs were identical. I never noticed that when I was reading them both. It tells me that I'm recognizing things that I didn't before. It tells me I'm a step closer to memorizing and internalizing Alone Together and it tells me that I can quote the bridge to one over the other in my solo if I am so moved.

Not even saying anyone else should do it, just that it's what I'm choosing to do this year. Scares the **** out of me, to tell you the truth, but I'm committed. That's why I'm tearing the pages out. If I just put them on a list that I claimed to know, I might still cheat.

Troy

 

[musicman5string]

I'll just list my reasons and not try to speak directly for anyone else.

It's not really the inaccuracies, because if I know a song, I'll find and play around the inaccuracies. If I don’t know a song and whoever’s gig it is points to a Real Book page, then we’re all going to play them and people who know the song will cringe and people who don’t will not notice. I need to generally move beyond taking those gigs. Up Jumped Spring, for example, is one of the worst charts in the book. But I know how it goes. I still look at it when it gets called anyway because I don’t trust myself. (actually this one was torn out, so I will either play it correctly from memory now or screw it up and come home and revisit it). When I’m playing that with people who are looking at a Real Book Chart, I usually try to point out the big problems with it before we count in and/or listen to what they are playing, maybe I avoid the 3rd in my line if I’m not sure if they’re playing minor or dominant chords.

Had I not gotten a Real Book, if there was not a common book that everyone used, I don't know how I would have every gotten out and started playing. When I was starting and people said basically that you couldn't leave your house until you knew every standard in all 12 keys, I thought it was bull**** and still do. It served its purpose for me. It got me playing with other people. However, it's holding me back, now.

There are tunes that I've been playing for years and still don't know. Evidently, repetition doesn't equate to memorization in this regard. Conversely, there are tunes that I’ve learned in an afternoon and never forgotten. Recently, I’ve had to hand my book over to the piano player for a song that I felt like I ALMOST knew when he didn’t know it at all. Turns out that I did know it and the chart was just a crutch.

When my head is in the chart, then I lose visual connection with the band and some of my concentration gets reassigned to watching the changes go by. When I play things without the chart, then that concentration returns to something else, like the high hat or the piano’s voicings or signals to doubletime or whatever.

Not having a book or music stand gets me closer to that fabled one trip from the car that we all dream of.

Autumn Leaves is an example of something that I practice through all 12 keys. I can’t do that with everything, but there are a few tunes that are worth doing that with. Others are worth taking through 3 or 4 keys.

It’s a crutch for me, it’s keeping me from moving forward musically. There are those who believe that you can play songs that you don’t know at all, just by using your ears. That’s hard for me to imagine about myself, but I do know that there are people who can do it. My plan is just to work really hard and developing the repertoire, pattern recognition and ear to cover the 50 or so most common calls. The things I’m expected to know. I have another set of tunes like Arabia and Totem Pole that I have had memorized for years and play with specific people, but will never get casually called. I just need a standards repertoire. If I’ve got that and someone calls “JuJu” on stage, I can say “I’m sorry I don’t know that one” without feeling like a loser. Then they can sketch it out for me, give me a chart or call something else. Right now, it’s “A Foggy Day”, which I really should know, but don’t because its not one that I would ever call on my own.

There are a lot of tunes in the Real Book that I don’t need to know, like Alfie, for example. So, I’m not trying to learn the whole book. There are also a good amount of tunes that aren’t in the Real Book, like Bye Bye Blackbird and I Thought About You, that I do need to know. Having the book with me on a gig will prevent me from learning these songs. So, I’m giving it up.

I’ll keep other books with charts in them at home for reference and absolutely will use them to help learn new tunes, practice reading, check out changes compared to various recordings, etc.. I just don’t want it at sessions with me any more. That’s all.

Now that I’ve torn those pages out and given them away, they can’t go back. I feel a huge burden to make sure I know and remember those tunes. That in itself is helpful to me and means that I’ll succeed.

There’s my explanation.

Troy

Troy-
I hear ya man; learning jazz tunes is a daunting task, because, as you said, as a bass player we're supposed to know every tune ever written, which includes swing, bebop, modal, contemporary, AND you're supposed to WRITE as well....oye vie. Well, I don't agree with that...we are only human.
Here's my thinking: first of all, 50 tunes is not enough; a good bassist should probably know 150 at least, imo, to go out and do gigs and feel comfortable that he/she doesn't know "Dance Cadaverous" by Wayne Shorter...you know what I mean? That includes lots of Standards, Ellington, Miles, plenty of Bird/Diz, and some Trane, Joe Henderson, and Chick.
There are a few lists out there, one from Aebersold (which I personally only partially agree with) and some online, plus I think there was a thread here about this. Pick a bunch and do 'em.
I used to get together with a guitarist years ago and play tunes. We'd open the book and call "Yesterdays" for example. We'd read it down. Then, the next time we'd get together, he'd say "Hey man, what about "Yesterdays"; I've been working on it." And I'd say "Ok, what are the changes again?"
And he'd run 'em down and we'd play it....it only takes a few times of those situations before you start remembering tunes this way; I mean, LOTS of tunes are I/vi/ii/V in major OR minor, and you just get used to it.
What about tape recording yourself playing half notes to a tune you want to learn and then going back and getting it by ear? For example, you want to learn "Beautiful Love"? Tape yourself playing the changes in half notes and then play the melody against it, then transcribe your half notes BY EAR. This will definitely work...set goals and try to learn 2 tunes a week; in a year you'll be well on your way.
Hope this helps.

 

[Dave Martin]

Troy-

Here's my thinking: first of all, 50 tunes is not enough; a good bassist should probably know 150 at least, imo, to go out and do gigs and feel comfortable that he/she doesn't know "Dance Cadaverous" by Wayne Shorter...you know what I mean?

In my world, at least, 150 tunes is not even a good starting point for a working bassist. Why not? Because I don't only do jazz gigs on double bass. There are also 50's rockabilly gigs, country gigs, western swing gigs, oldies gigs, bluegrass gigs, folk gigs, weddings, bar mitzvahs, funerals and supermarket openings, etc... (And that doesn't include the gigs I do on electric bass). I mean, it's great if you know a bunch of Wayne Shorter songs, but I don't think the WW II vets I played for on Saturday would care...

 

[TroyK]

The ONLY thing I'm talking about here is what it would take for me to live without my Real Book. Not how many tunes I know or how many styles of music I can play. I know a bunch of Blue Note stuff that isn't in the book and never gets called. I'm not counting those. I'm not counting blues (jazz variety or otherwise), I'm not counting pop or rock or things I've written. I'm talking about how many standards that I can't get by on are forcing me to carry the Berklee Real Book 5th Edition around with me that, if I learned I could pitch it. That's it.

Didn't mean for this to become a Johnson measuring contest.

 

[Larry Holloway]

How many years ago was the 'Real Book' written? 25, 30 years ago (more)? Like an old piano player told me: It was written as a guide line, and how amazing it is that it turned into a 'bible' of changes for another generation. I've heard it called the "Real Wrong Book". It's great for learning tunes, progressions, etc.. Play with a few good, great piano players & your ear will tell you what sounds good, and not good.

 

[Larry Holloway]

Play with a few good, great piano players & your ear will tell you what sounds good, and not good.

Hey Troy: Sorry, this part of my post wasn't aimed at you. I know you've played with great piano players! I'm just trying to get across to everyone that fake books are just guide lines.
BTW: Is there another Seattle bass piss up in the works for this fall ?

 

[Paul Warburton]

I've been preaching this same thing for years...right Larry?
It does help to be old like me...i've lived through most tunes and couldn't avoid not knowing most of them...but come on, there are so many people running around town, including players of every insrument, it's pretty damn sad. And you should know Alfie!!! It's part of our American Standard Repertoire as Phil Woods says. It's a good damn tune! You should know it for the joy of knowing it!! If the tune isn't good in you're eyes, it should be bad enough to make fun of. I dare you to make fun of Alfie......I can play Alfie in all 12 keys.

 

[musicman5string]

In my world, at least, 150 tunes is not even a good starting point for a working bassist. Why not? Because I don't only do jazz gigs on double bass. There are also 50's rockabilly gigs, country gigs, western swing gigs, oldies gigs, bluegrass gigs, folk gigs, weddings, bar mitzvahs, funerals and supermarket openings, etc... (And that doesn't include the gigs I do on electric bass). I mean, it's great if you know a bunch of Wayne Shorter songs, but I don't think the WW II vets I played for on Saturday would care...

I'm talking about strictly jazz freelance gigs.

 

[musicman5string]

The ONLY thing I'm talking about here is what it would take for me to live without my Real Book. Not how many tunes I know.

Aren't the two related? If you know the tunes you don't need the book.
Sorry my advice wasn't more helpful man; best of luck to you.

 

[TroyK]

Aren't the two related? If you know the tunes you don't need the book.
Sorry my advice wasn't more helpful man; best of luck to you.

My point is that I know tunes that are not in the Real Book. It just happens to contain some tunes that I'm expected to know and up to this point have not retained. It has not been my beginning and end of jazz, it's just a crutch to some repretoire. Mostly the part that I haven't cared enough about to invest learning in yet.

I know a fair number of Jazz Messenger songs, Hank Mobley songs, Lee Morgan songs, Kenny Dorham songs, etc. I've had trouble retaining A Foggy Day, for example, because it doesn't usually get called by the people I play with regularly and I haven't put my time into it, because it's not on my favorite albums.

So, it's not the number of songs I know. It's the number of obligatory standards that I know. I'm just trying to expand my repretoire and get rid of this particular crutch.

And find out how big everyone's Johnson is...and find out who secretly loves Alfie.

troy

 

[Ike Harris]

Hey Dave-

Good to see you on TB. I think what you and some others are getting at, it's not so much just the genre of music that this is about, it's the process of learning tunes. You know, learn the A section and the B section(even just knowing the first chord in the b section). A good pianist can relay that info in a few seconds before you start playing. The changes are usually cyclical in some form or another. Then put it together in AABA form. Listen to the melody, it usually helps. Blues tunes take care of themselves.

I was fortunate enough to come up playing bass before all these fake books appeared and was forced to come up with a process to instantly memorize tunes("Stella" was a wake up call). There was a blind pianist here named John Probst who could memorize a whole show from a run-though. He was the one who hipped me to the form process. And don't learn the songs in one key, put them in relative changes - 1-6-2-5, etc. Then you can do them in ANY key. Of course, I can never remember what the standard key is for a lot of tunes, but I'd rather have that problem than the other.

But anyway, I've got some of the books, mostly for reference, but these kinds of gigs have gotten so scarce around here these days, it's gotten to be a challenge to do them again. Hope some of this helps.

Ike

 

[TroyK]

It does help. That's exactly where I'm trying to go.

Troy