Double Bass The Real Book

[musicman5string]

. I've had trouble retaining A Foggy Day, for example, because it doesn't usually get called by the people I play with regularly and I haven't put my time into it, because it's not on my favorite albums.

Troy-
"A Foggy Day" can be found on Red Garland's "A Garland of Red" and Charles Mingus' "Quintet plus Max Roach"; Sinatra also recorded it as well as 100 other people.
I think Red does it in G and Mingus does it in Eb...
Anyway, if you play through it with those a few times you should be able to get it; it's not that hard to hear the I/VI/ii/V and the ii/V to IV etc. If it is I'd advise some serious ear training.
Btw, why don't you drop your attitutde about a "Johnson contest"; you're being ****in rude when people here are trying to help you. Good luck with your endevour.

 

[Dave Martin]

Hey Dave-

I was fortunate enough to come up playing bass before all these fake books appeared and was forced to come up with a process to instantly memorize tunes("Stella" was a wake up call). There was a blind pianist here named John Probst who could memorize a whole show from a run-though. He was the one who hipped me to the form process.

Hey, Ike! it's been a while - are you still teaching? I never did live dates with John, only sessions. That was a funny guy, and frighteningly musical...

I agree, by the way, that learning the form (and more important, developing a system of learning and retaining song forms) is a crucial part of being a working musician; I opened my big mouth on this thread for two reasons - first, because I don't believe that refusing the use a chart gives a player any innate advantage (which was kinda how this thread started); you and I have both worked too many shows that were either vastly re-arranged from the standard form or where everyone on the gig used a book. It doesn't really matter if the book is wrong, if everyone's using it - if you're the only guy playing the 'right' changes, you're wrong. If you don't need to use a chart, great! But given the choice between hearing a musician reading a chart and hearing a musician guessing where the changes are gonna go (and guessing wrong), give me the chart reader every time. And since we're bassists, it's even more important; other instruments can wait for the chord or play something that works everywhere - if the bassist is wrong on the down beat, there's no hiding it.

Second, I kinda disagree with the concept that any number of songs (150 was mentioned earlier) memorized is enough for a working bassist, even if you're ONLY talking about jazz dates. (Sorry I didn't realize that before my last posting - I wrongly assumed that the thread was simply about freeing oneself from the Real Book).

Even in our little corner of the world, a free-lancer could very likely find himself scrambling on gigs with that few tunes in his repertoire. The set that Beegie Adair would play is a long way from the tunes that Jeff Coffin would call, which would be vastly different than an Al DeLory gig or even a Boots Randolph gig. As long as you're working (especially free-lancing), learning tunes is a life-long process.

Expanding on that a little, we also have to remember that 'standards' vary from region to region - the tunes that would likely be called on the bandstand in Chicago are likely to be different from the ones in DC, LA, or Manhattan. not that there's anything wrong with that, but people do move...

While I'm thinking of it, here's a quick example of what I'm talking about; I produced a vocal record last year that used Beegie Adair and Lori Mecham - each was on half the record (the rest of the rhythm section stayed the same - Roger Spencer, Bob Mater and Andre Reiss). And on both days, one of the tunes was unfamiliar to the pianist. Beegie's only been playing jazz in Nashville for about 40 years, and Lori's been here for what, 20? And teaching at the Jazz Workshop for 8 or 10? We (the artist and I) didn't think that they were that obscure - I think one was a Johnny Mercer tune, and the other was one of Jimmy Van Heusen's songs. But nevertheless, we thought tha they were 'standards', yet most of the musician's had never heard 'em.

In any case, Ike - gimme a call - I'm around (usually in the studio; I'm waiting now for the guitarist so we can start a day of overdubs...).

 

[Ed Fuqua]

On the other hand (there's always another hand), I'd rather have the band working from a common (even if incorrect in spots) chart, than to listen to them make mistakes.

The audience - that is, folks who pay to see you, or who hire you to play for their party - don't listen as close as you think they do. I've never had a party planner or client come up and say, "You people played a B7 on "50 ways"; the chord is supposed to be a D#7b5...", or "Why are you all using charts?". If they noticed the song at all, they'll say, "Wow, it was cool that you played that Paul Simon song - it's one of my favorites".

Your experience is your experience and mine is mine.

And mine is that people (even in East Bum****) CAN hear the difference between a bunch of cats who are playing the chord scales that they learned go with those chords on the page in front of them and a bunch that are playing music based on what they are hearing, not seeing. I've heard far too many people say "Well I don't really like jazz" when all they've heard is a bunch of guys playing gibberish while standing in front of Real Books. And then you play with some feeling and wit and logic and they say "I've never heard anything like this before, this is great." It's NOT the material, it's the ability to play with meaning, intent and feeling using the material as a framework. And you don't get that with your nose stuck in paper.

If you don't really care how it sounds, as long as nobody complains, more power to you. I have a different standard. It kind of doesn't matter if nobody notices, if it ain't music, it ain't music.

 

[TroyK]

- I wrongly assumed that the thread was simply about freeing oneself from the Real Book.

Actually, that is what it was originally intended to be. Nothing else. Thinking back, I'm not sure why I posted it here. I knew that I would get some good advice from a few people like Ed and a little encouragement. I also probably thought that by putting it out there, that it would be harder for me to not follow through with. But that's about it. I'll have to admit that I regret posting it at all. Probably something I should have kept to my inner circle.

****ing rude? (Musicman5String) If you say so, but it was my thread and I didn't read that particular set of proclamations as helpful or supportive so much as chest pounding and making my goals seem insignificant.

Still, this is my goal. What I want to do this year with myself as a musician and I'm going to do it. It's got nothing to do with any of you unless you want it to.

Less time on the internet and more time in the practice room is probably in order for me.

Peace

Troy

 

[musicman5string]

Troy-
I'm sorry if you interpreted my suggestions and sharing of similar experiences as "chest pounding"; it certainly wasn't meant to be that; I was just trying to participate in the conversation with my point of view, and I don't mean to get off on the wrong foot with you.
Peace.

 

[Michael Glynn]

Hey Troy,

I went through what you are going through a few years back. For me it was a combination of the John Clayton factor (I think he has been a positive influence on a lot of people in this regard) and showing up to gigs with my Real Book and the piano player saying, "put that thing away and just follow me." I think some people have given some great advice already and some of mine will just be repeating it, but here is stuff that works for me:

-Try to learn common chord progressions and forms for standards. A lot of songs have very similar chord progressions (Check out "There Will Never Be Another You" and "You're a Weaver of Dreams") and you get to the point where you hit one chord and can guess what the next chord will be, or at least narrow it down mentally to a few possibilities.

-Play along with CDs and try to pick up on the changes. If you have more than one recording of the same song, try to figure out what people do the same and what they do differently. Ask yourself what makes "A Foggy Day" "A Foggy Day" if people play different chords in places.

-Play with piano players that know lots of songs and just try to follow them. Sometimes, if I really have no idea about a song, the piano player will be kind enough to play a rubato intro over part/all of the form, giving you a chance to pick it up before you have to play.

-A good way to focus on which songs to learn is everytime you play a gig or go to a session and someone calls up a tune you don't know, that is the next tune you are going to learn, because they'll probably call it again.*

-Try to learn songs (and train your ear) in a more I-ii-V way than F-Bb-Eb. That way it is easier to learn songs no matter what the key, and it makes it much easier to play songs in every key (which brings me to...)

-Play songs in 12 keys at sessions when you get a chance. You may not need to do it on the job all the time, but it is a great way to work out your ear and think in terms of chord relations, instead exact chords.**

Best of luck! It's a long, ongoing process, but it only gets easier with time.

Michael


* I have a funny story about this. I was playing a gig with Don Lanphere and he called up "Gregory is Here". I had never even heard of the song and apparently neither had the piano or drummer. We just had the chords, no other markings, and Don counts it off "1-2-1-2". We all hit the downbeat and then...nothing! We didn't know if it was swing, ballad, latin, whatever. Finally the trumpet player on the gig turns around and yells "Latin" and we fumble our way through it. Anyway, next time I had a gig with Don, he called that tune again, and I f***ing nailed it, because I shedded the hell out of it in the interim.

** Just as a note, on the last few gigs I played, the piano player decided to take Cherokee, St Thomas and Mack the Knife through all 12 keys. Of course, my solo always tended to start on F#. It happens!

 

[mje]

I remember reading an interview with a bassist- might have been in John Goldsby's book- whose career began in the 30s. He asked a friend, how do I get started? The friend said buy a bass, start listening ot the radio, and play along. There's a lot of good advice there.

 

[Uncletoad]

Thinking back, I'm not sure why I posted it here. I knew that I would get some good advice from a few people like Ed and a little encouragement. I also probably thought that by putting it out there, that it would be harder for me to not follow through with. But that's about it. I'll have to admit that I regret posting it at all. Probably something I should have kept to my inner circle.

Well I'm very glad you did make this public regardless of the flak you've taken. It helped me look at what I'm doing in a different way. Ed's comments as always bring me back to being on the gig you are on and making the music you are making in the moment. I need those kind of reminders as I never want to "phone it in" or be on my own island on the gig. Troy, your point of view of shedding this book as a albatross is a good one. It is about moving into a space of independence from charts and reliance on the interdependence of others and every one's communal understanding of what is happening together at the moment. That is very freeing and very mature. I cheer you on.

I for one don't do to many gigs where the book comes out. Around here RB's on gigs are seen as crutches and the piano players (like my brother) will drag me around alt changes like a rag doll if I try to read instead of play. Makes me look like the brain dead hack I am when I don't "know" the tune. There is a vindictive streak in Jazz that is challenging but sadistic. I rarely see that outside of Jazz circles. When I am a sub on pop or rock or country gigs and don't know a tune there is a "pitch in" attitude amongst the players as they try to heard me in. On Jazz gigs when I don't know the tune they just try to kick my ass.

I wonder sometimes if that attitude spills out on this board when someone steps out against the grain a bit and claims some new turf.

Go Troy, Go Troy.....

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Around here RB's on gigs are seen as crutches and the piano players (like my brother) will drag me around alt changes like a rag doll if I try to read instead of play. Makes me look like the brain dead hack I am when I don't "know" the tune. There is a vindictive streak in Jazz that is challenging but sadistic. I rarely see that outside of Jazz circles. When I am a sub on pop or rock or country gigs and don't know a tune there is a "pitch in" attitude amongst the players as they try to heard me in. On Jazz gigs when I don't know the tune they just try to kick my ass.

hmmmm. One of the best ways to learn to listen is to have crusty old mother****ers yell at you when you aren't. I hav eto say I have experienced both sides of the coin - being a no ear mother****er who's being led around by a tender piece of anatomy while everybody bitches about how it sucks to play with me cause while I don't swing and have a thin sound at least I have no ideas to being the guy with some small ears who is at least making an attempt to play in a fashion that communicates some meaning. And have the guys on the stand do everything they could to help me with **** I ain't hearing quite yet.

Most jazz musicians of my acquaintance will be open and giving and sharing as long as they get the feeling that their efforts aren't going to help some half steppin' jerk continue to half step.

 

[.matthew e wengerd.]

I'm in.

I'm green, have small ears, and don't have many tunes memorized, but I'm working on it. The RB has been a blessing in allowing me to play with some patient cats in the last few years, but I agree with JC and Troy and whoever else is on this bandwagon.

I recognize I use the RB as a crutch. Sometimes, I have to work to find the motivation to learn a tune when I can just open the book. That's why I see Troy's determination as admirable. He's desparate to get out of the same kind of funk I'm in.

And, yeah, it'll help me learn (and ultimately know) more tunes than the realbook has to offer, but right now, this is a tangible step in the right direction.

Hear here!

 

[musicman5string]

Well I'm very glad you did make this public regardless of the flak you've taken. .....

What flak has he taken? People aren't allowed to explain the processes that worked for them? I read through my posts very carefully and I don't see how what I said is not relevant to the original thread. Must be me.

I for one don't do to many gigs where the book comes out. Around here RB's on gigs are seen as crutches and the piano players (like my brother) will drag me around alt changes like a rag doll if I try to read instead of play. Makes me look like the brain dead hack I am when I don't "know" the tune. There is a vindictive streak in Jazz that is challenging but sadistic. I rarely see that outside of Jazz circles. When I am a sub on pop or rock or country gigs and don't know a tune there is a "pitch in" attitude amongst the players as they try to heard me in. On Jazz gigs when I don't know the tune they just try to kick my ass.

I wonder sometimes if that attitude spills out on this board when someone steps out against the grain a bit and claims some new turf.

Go Troy, Go Troy.....

I'd like to make one last point and then I'm outta this murky thread for good:

I was advocating using the real book, or better still, "The New Real Book" by Chuck Sher, which is actually accurate, to HELP learn some tunes at home, not taking it with you on a gig and having your nose buried in the pages song after song, because let's face it, if that's what someone is doing, they shouldn't be on a gig, they should be in a jam session.

Honestly, I find the lack of maturity in some of these posts downright disturbing.....guys will go through a 12 page thread about what kind of cable their using to connect to an amp, but it's not ok to offer differing opinions on how someone actually learns, or has learned, tunes?

Wow.

 

[Dave Martin]

...not taking it with you on a gig and having your nose buried in the pages song after song, because let's face it, if that's what someone is doing, they shouldn't be on a gig, they should be in a jam session.

Funny, the last video I saw of the Basie Basie band, they were reading. For that matter, so was the Chicago Symphony, the musicians doing Fiddler and Spamalot on Broadway...

I think I'm done here.

 

[TroyK]

Welcome aboard, Matthew!

Here's the deal:

There are a lot of things that I'm committed to working on because I want to be a great bassist. Right now, I'm a decent bassist. There are people in town who call me a very good bassist and others respectfully call me a beginner. They are both right based on their context and I don't let either label change how I see myself. I have a bunch of work to do to be the musician I want to be. Among those things are:

Time
Intonation
Facility on my instrument
Developing a voice as a soloist
Becoming good at transcribing
Becoming a good site reader
Becoming a better composer
Becoming a reasonable home-piano player
Amassing a repretoire
<other stuff inserted here>

In addition to those things, I want to get rid of the Real Book because I think it's keeping me from internalizing tunes and using my ears. It helped me through a phase and it's been holding me back for a while since then. I want to move on. I agree with Ed (now and usually) that it makes a difference when people are playing good changes (I won't even say "the right changes") but they're playing them with intent and together. 5 people each reading their own charts don't do that on purpose. I want to play with people who have moved beyond that and I want to be one of those people. That doesn't mean I won't use quality charts at home as a referrence. It doesn't mean that I won't or that people shouldn't have music on stage, because as someone pointed out, it's a legit thing to do. I just don't want to HAVE to do it to play standards.

To divorce myself from the real book I said that I needed to learn about 40 of the songs that were in it and then I thought I could get by. I didn't say those were the only songs I thought I should know. I probalby know at least that many now, but just not THOSE 40 songs. I can play "This I Dig of You" from Soul Station without a chart. I can plan Kenny Barron's "Voyage" without a chart....etc.

I was a little put back by the response that said "40 songs doesn't cut it in my circles. You have to know at least 150 to begin." I took this as a totally irrelevant point that had nothing to do with my post except to show that you're further along than me, which I don't doubt that you are. But so what? Does that mean that my goal sucks? That I should cash it in? What? It's just not helpful. I hope you don't teach because a good teacher recognizes that their students need milestones to work towards other than equaling your career. If you meant it differently, then I'm sorry I over reacted. It was just kind of a downer.

Anyone who argued that the Real Book was not so bad or that it shouldn't be a big deal to keep using it. Cool with me. I've argued that too and it was right for me for a while. I'm just ready to try something different. I took no exception to any of that.

Really sorry I started it. I was away from Talkbass for a week and got a lot of encouragement from the musicians I was with. I'm really feeling good about what I am working on and wanted to share it with you guys because I'm usually not away for a week. That's all. Back to the woodshed with me.

Peace,

Troy

 

[Sam Sherry]

Troy, your looking like you're at a good place in your life and music. Right on, hombre.

I've got nothing to add to the Real Book/reading comments you've already heard except this:

We all have to read sometime and it's easy for anybody to get their nose stuck in a chart. Here's a really simple trick to make it easier to listen when using a chart: Stick it on the floor. That way you can read for a chorus or two and then launch off.

Keep up the good work, bro.

 

[Andy Allen]

Really sorry I started it. I was away from Talkbass for a week and got a lot of encouragement from the musicians I was with. I'm really feeling good about what I am working on and wanted to share it with you guys because I'm usually not away for a week. That's all. Back to the woodshed with me.

I'm really glad that you started this thread - it's of great interest to me since leaving the Real Book behind is also one of my goals. But I think that I'm a little way behind you - probably about a year; so perhaps I should make my goal Jan.1st 2008 and make myself stick with it. Anyway, your thoughts and explanations are very encouraging, and I hope you'll keep us updated on your progress and results, good and bad. I'll be cheering you on from here at the back of the pack.

Andy

 

[musicman5string]

Funny, the last video I saw of the Basie Basie band, they were reading. For that matter, so was the Chicago Symphony, the musicians doing Fiddler and Spamalot on Broadway...

I think I'm done here.

Well, I was talking about somebody having to read "All The things You Are" or something like that, not big band charts or show charts.

 

[musicman5string]

I was a little put back by the response that said "40 songs doesn't cut it in my circles. You have to know at least 150 to begin." I took this as a totally irrelevant point that had nothing to do with my post except to show that you're further along than me, which I don't doubt that you are. But so what? Does that mean that my goal sucks? That I should cash it in? What? It's just not helpful. I hope you don't teach because a good teacher recognizes that their students need milestones to work towards other than equaling your career. If you meant it differently, then I'm sorry I over reacted. It was just kind of a downer.


Troy

Chill man; your goals suck? 40 songs "don't cut it"? 150 to begin? Cash it in? I never said any of those things, and frankly, I do not for the life of me understand your reaction.

FYI, I am a teacher, have been for awhile even though I'm still pretty young myself, and I certainly do recognize "milestones" that students need to reach; and I don't go around telling students they need to know 150 tunes or else pack it up. However, any name jazz musician (not just bassists) I studied with, if you said "I want to be a working jazz musician" would be like "You should know 500 tunes" or something like that; it's jazz reality if you want to play with alot of people and NOT READ. Dig? Not reading is what we're talking about, isn't it? Don't ask me; I'm no one compared to Rufus Reid or Todd Coolman or anyone else...go ask them how many tunes you "should" know.

 

[Ron Lacey]

Really sorry I started it. I was away from Talkbass for a week and got a lot of encouragement from the musicians I was with. I'm really feeling good about what I am working on and wanted to share it with you guys because I'm usually not away for a week. That's all. Back to the woodshed with me.

Peace,

Troy

I'm glad you started it. I'm way, way behind you and probably most others on this thread. I was wondering if RB was my next step but now I'm rethinking that approach. I'm under no pressure to play except for my own enjoyment, so why lock into something I'll want to give up later? Thanks for sharing, it gave me something to think about.

Around here it seems like the heat has everyone a little testy. Maybe that's spilled over to the forum as well. Time for a cool beverage!

Ron

 

[Michael Case]

Hey Troy,

I think your goals are great. I'm a little too dependant on the book as well and want to get away from it. I think what happened on this thread (as with others) is that people start new conversations and they get mixed up with the original thread. Personally I didn't see anybody say "if you don't know 150 songs forget it." But I did see some miscommunication. Please keep us posted on your discoveries as I'm sure all the others like me want to share our experiences with RBA (Real Book Anonymous).

 

[Marcus Johnson]

:

Stick it on the floor. That way you can read for a chorus or two and then launch off.

The way my eyes work anymore, that's about the range at which the RB snaps into focus.

Anybody ever see the "Real Little Book"? It's the same thing, but very stealthy, about the size of a paperback.

I feel for anyone just trying to get all this stuff together. There's just so much music that is deemed to be "standard" repertoire, and jazz bassists are expected to know a lot of it, just because we play with so many different people. I'm lucky; my folks bathed me in great music since I was a kid, so I have a lot of tunes stuck up in my head. Without that; who knows? I don't know if tearing up the Real Book is the answer.. but I do enjoy playing music that I'm actively listening and responding to much more than something I'm just blasting through on paper. I like Sam's approach if the tune is new to you... read it if need be, absorb it, and then play the thing. You can get really good at it if you do it a bunch. If you're playing with good players, the paper won't mean much anyway, in my experience.... because the chord subs will kill you if you treat the RB as Gospel.