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Double Bass The Real Book

#61
I have been occasionally checking out the progress of this discussion. Now I'm into "my cups"enough to enter in.
I play a couple of times a month with a pianist in her 70s. She will never say no to a lame singer asking if she knows "such and such'. She can fake everything, if faking is coming up with a 32 bar coherent structure with enough "hooks" to identify the song. I usually play every other time with the RBs, and the other times without. I really don't have a real preference. I think I swing more, and am more in tune without the RBs. However, I'm uncertain if I can signal to others what's coming up as well without the RBs on unfamiliar tunes. I'm happy to fake anything, and am old and wily enough to feign arrogance (or confidence) so that what I play has at least gravitas, but I'm not sure that if I were soloing over the tunes as a horn player who didn't know the song , I would know what the next chord (or tonality) was to be. I really am less concerned with where we are, than where we're going.

So...
For me, what I am trying to learn with the Real Books, is how to play while reading them, as well as I do while ad-libbing. Ideally, one couldn't tell if I were reading or not. So it is with playing all written music. The goal is to make it seem to come staight from the soul. As has been said before "In music, once you learn to fake sincerity, the rest is easy."
So... a place for everything, and everthing in it's place.

Peace (or turmoil-bring it on)

Steve Schuster
 
#63
As has been said before "In music, once you learn to fake sincerity, the rest is easy."


Hey Steve,

When you read this for the second time, are you telling me it doesn't make you wince, even a little bit? Nothing personal, bro, but as someone who has spent a life in the arts, it's a philosophy that really makes me sad.

phil
 
#65
[ The goal is to make it seem to come staight from the soul. As has been said before "In music, once you learn to fake sincerity, the rest is easy."


I don't know man, I am sure steve schuster is a fine man and an upstanding citizen, but it sounds like he means it.

Let me offer: "Once you learn to be truly sincere, the rest is hard".
 
#67
Oh, I dunno, he talks about "faking" his way through tunes, hitting just enough hooks to kind of sound like you're playing but ultimately "if I were soloing over the tunes as a horn player who didn't know the song , I would know what the next chord (or tonality) was to be."

Given the choice between actually playing and "feign(ing) arrogance", well I'm pretty sure everybody's clear what side of that I come down on.
 
#71
Ed,
Quite a hornet's nest of misreading/miss stating.
I didn't expect the words of Groucho (thank you Airbass for the attribution) to be taken as an artist's manifesto. I meant it in the concise, funny, ironic sense it was intended. However, in some way it does relate to translating music from the page to aural form. Playing written music so it sounds as though it comes from the heart is a gift, but the process also relies on a collection of learned artifices. The "soulful" prolongation of a single tone may in fact just be the culmination of years of practising and analyzing vibrato. How many of us have known (heard) people with great sincerity and much hard work make music sound like coal mining? Sincerity, as such, is a questionable musical tool. Mr. Fuqua, I'd be happy to match the sacrifices to "art" I've made (and am making) in my life with yours. I spend much of my existence when not playing, devoted to hard work in preparing to play music (practicing). I should be allowed to belittle that if I wish. Life is probably too short and serious to "be serious". Dig?

"When you read this for the second time, are you telling me it doesn't make you wince, even a little bit? Nothing personal, bro, but as someone who has spent a life in the arts, it's a philosophy that really makes me sad.

phil"

Sorry it made you sad phil. And no, it doesn't make me wince. The Groucho quote is wonderful, to me. And the rest of what I wrote has been misunderstood. I've spent my whole adult life earning a living, and feeding my family and spirit in the "arts" and I may be older than you are. When in doubt, why not give the benefit of the doubt and assume irony?

Thank you eesan. Thank you Aaron.

"Oh, I dunno, he talks about "faking" his way through tunes, hitting just enough hooks to kind of sound like you're playing".

I never said such a thing (and this is not a Rumsfeld style denial). I said the pianist did this, and out of necessity. I was trying only to point out that she wasn't playing RB changes, and also that what makes a song that particular song is a certain kind of essence which is somewhat ineffable.

"but ultimately "if I were soloing over the tunes as a horn player who didn't know the song , I would know what the next chord (or tonality) was to be."

This is straight forward. One of our functions is not only to make the time and tonality work at the present moment, but to indicate the future course. Sometimes, for example, when going to a bridge makes a major (not "Major") change in tonality, in an unusual way, the bass needs to lead to the change with a line with a leading tone (no coincidence that nomenclature) making the tonality change "sensible". If you don't know the song, then the RB may help, whether reading it, or glancing at it before the tune begins.

"Given the choice between actually playing and "feign(ing) arrogance", well I'm pretty sure everybody's clear what side of that I come down on."

Bully (and I think I really mean "bully") for you. Of course you know I much prefer feigning arrogance (and eating babies alive) to actually playing. Wouldn't anyone?

Some people don't have to fake arrogance. They are utterly sincere in it.

Sorry I have taken this so personally, but I feel sincerely dissed.

__________________
 
#72
One of my favorite slogans these days is Eschew Obfuscation.

Steve I have to say that, for the first time in a LONG time, you have me at a disadvantage. I have absolutly NO idea what it is you are trying to say. Maybe if you take out all the things that you are saying facetiously, take out all the sarcastic asides (purely for informational purposes, I'm as prone to taking snits as anyone) and just clearly state what you're trying to say I might have a chance of understanding you. It's certainly up to you; you may feel you have been misunderstood, but I (at this point) feel like you just haven't been very clear. So maybe splain a little more simply.

"Some people don't have to fake arrogance. They are utterly sincere in it." I'll see your Groucho and raise you a Frank Lloyd Wright. But seriously, yes I'm serious about the music. If I wasn't, why else would I be involved in it? I want to be able to communicate as best I can with those that I'm playing with, it's hard to have fun when you're babysitting somebody through the changes or time feel etc. If I'm working as hard as I can to remove any impediment I can to creating a real moment between the other folks I'm playing with, why would I want anything different from anybody else?
 
#73
Ed,

Thanks for a reasonable reply to my hyperbole. I enjoy language, as I do music, and so enjoy color in speech. I think meaning is conveyed by both literal and figurative means. I will temporarily try only to be literal, though it pains me. (no, not literal pain, it was just an expression).



"Steve I have to say that, for the first time in a LONG time, you have me at a disadvantage. I have absolutly NO idea what it is you are trying to say. Maybe if you take out all the things that you are saying facetiously, take out all the sarcastic asides (purely for informational purposes, I'm as prone to taking snits as anyone) and just clearly state what you're trying to say I might have a chance of understanding you."

Ok

"But seriously, yes I'm serious about the music. If I wasn't, why else would I be involved in it?"

OK. In all sincerity, I am serious about music. I have devoted my life to it, at sometimes great cost. I hope you will grant me equality in this matter. That being said, I don't really feel a need to be particularly earnest in discussing it. To make another unattributed quote, "bankers talk about art and artists talk about money". See, even when I try hard, I can't escape symbols, and metaphors. My apologies. I really am trying. To be absolutely straight, humor is the best way I know to deal with almost everything which is painful. Well Ibuprofen too. I can't hear 16 bars of Dexter Gordon playing without sensing the inherent overt humorousness of the man whom few would feel lead a painless existence.

The crux of my first letter was:

The RB has a place sometimes. For several reasons. The use of the RB can be an exercise, as is reading and playing Bach Cello sonatas, in translating the page to the sound. Whoops, more symbolic language. In translating the notes/chord symbols on the page, to a music which sounds natural and from the heart. Whoops. Heart =sympathetic emotional communication. Or maybe "heart" only works as symbolic language, having no objective construct?


" I want to be able to communicate as best I can with those that I'm playing with, it's hard to have fun when you're babysitting somebody through the changes or time feel etc."

I also like to have fun playing. and yes, sometimes it is hard to have fun when you're babysitting somebody through the changes or time feel etc. Sometimes the good of the group (is "good" too abstract?-I'll assume you know what I mean) means one has to sacrfice fun to help the weak survive. And the audience not leave. I get to play with excellent players often. I also have to play with mediocre or downright crumby players (and especially singers) occasionally. My function shifts with these personnel differences. Maybe in New York there are only gigs with all monster players, but here in the provinces we sometimes have to cope with less than stellar performers, some of whom actually pay us money to help them out. This is not snidishness, just truth. In these cases, fun is a bonus, but not the raison d'etre. (reason for existence). So... sometimes as bass player you are not only responsible for time, feel, harmonic definition, but also the best hope for providing structure for what's happening. The RB can help cope with this extra responsibility.

" If I'm working as hard as I can to remove any impediment I can to creating a real moment between the other folks I'm playing with, why would I want anything different from anybody else?"

I wouldn't want anything different from anyone else. But as the Rolling Stones once said "You don't always get what you want".

I'd love to be in transcendental ecstacy during the whole gig, but it doesn't seem to happen. Unless the gig is a drum circle in the park where utter sincerity and no chops leads to continuous joy for the players and unlistenable music for the audience, there isn't necessarily a connection between emotional input and emotional output. Skill trumps sincerity. Joy and a sense of fun certainly can be communicated if the music is competent.

I hope this clarifies my points somewhat. I wasn't intending to p*ss anyone off, just posit the thought that the RB might be of use sometimes.

And one more iron in the fire (whoops figurative speech) I mean, here's another thought for discussion.

The RB 1 has a lot of the tired tunes (or overplayed tunes) that are a big part of the collective repetoire, and therefore should be no problem to play bookless. But book two, despite having many bad changes, has a good many tunes not in the "Green Dolphin Street" category, which are great tunes which not everyone knows. I'll cite Gerry Mulligan's "5 Brothers" as an example. Book 3 has even worse changes, but Cole Porter's "Dream Dancing" is a great song, and being Cole Porter, is very hard/impossible to intuit the first time around. You can play it with strangers using the real book 3. The collective pool around here doesn't contain those two songs, but they're great. And rehearsals, even in the relative boonies aren't an option.
So... the RBs can add variety to our musical lives.

Steve
_____________
 
#74
Steve, I gotta say that i'm as confused as Mr. Fuqua is about your posts...I just can't seem to get a handle on them.
I don't want to seem as if i'm jumping on a band wagon that's gonna jump on your ass..but, for a lack of better language, and it seems you are very good at this, your musical attitudes appear to be a bit cold.
 
#75
SteveS said:
I hope this clarifies my points somewhat.
Click to expand...


confused.jpg
 
#76
"Steve, I gotta say that i'm as confused as Mr. Fuqua is about your posts...I just can't seem to get a handle on them.
I don't want to seem as if i'm jumping on a band wagon that's gonna jump on your ass..but, for a lack of better language, and it seems you are very good at this, your musical attitudes appear to be a bit cold."
__________________
Paul Warburton.

Mr. Warburton
As someone whose playing I actually had the patience to download from a dialup modem, and whose soulfulness and chops I was blown away by, you cut me to the quick.
So I guess for me it is important to be understood by you, whom I respect, having been very impressed by your playing.
What do you not understand? Is it regarding my opinion of the occasional use of the Real Books on live gigs, the original thread, or my thoughts regarding how best to convey feeling in music, through objective musical techniques, or through sincerity of conviction?
You only know of my way of talking about music, not of my ability to convey emotion through music. Who cares about the degree of emotional passion of talking about music? Talk and music are different beasts. When you tell me my "musical attitudes appear to be a bit cold", I am hurt by my own inability to properly seperate criticism of my verbally expressed attitude from my performance, which you have not conciously heard.
If attitude mattered Charlie Parker would be in jail, and Kenny G would be a millionaire (Whoops, that's what happened-bad example).
Having heard your download on another part of this forum, I am certain we share common values of what animates music. Human warmth is certainly paramount. So your "cold" remark, is, like the artic wind, biting.

Steven

P.S. Is that an equestrian sign for the horse you rode in on Chris?
 
#78
Hi Troy.

I’ve stayed away from commenting on this thread, because as you know, we once had this discussion in another forum, and it didn’t really turn out too well. And the same thing seems to be happening again. Maybe inevitable. I just wanted to say, congratulations on your decision to leave the Real Book behind, I'm very sure that you’ll one day look back on this as the beginning of a new, better chapter in your musical life.

My best wishes,
Brent
 
#79
I usually stay away from tense threads, but so many seem to end up that way, so...... I think you are fairly coherent Mr. Steve, dont let being misunderstood get you down. I wish the DB side would get less touchy, it gets pretty hard to make a joke around here. We all play Bass, lets be friends.
 
#80
Brent Nussey said:
Hi Troy.

I’ve stayed away from commenting on this thread, because as you know, we once had this discussion in another forum, and it didn’t really turn out too well. And the same thing seems to be happening again. Maybe inevitable. I just wanted to say, congratulations on your decision to leave the Real Book behind, I'm very sure that you’ll one day look back on this as the beginning of a new, better chapter in your musical life.
Click to expand...


Amen.


SteveS said:
Is that an equestrian sign for the horse you rode in on Chris?
Click to expand...


Was that supposed to be subtle? It wasn't, and back atcha.

Let me be more plainspoken: when you preface your remarks with a phrase like, "I have been occasionally checking out the progress of this discussion. Now I'm into "my cups"enough to enter in. ", and then follow that laudable introduction with novellas that bob and weave enough to leave little doubt as to the utter sincerity of its meaning, you can expect a little ribbing. Perhaps if you would try posting at some point when you are a bit more removed from the contents of "your cups" (with the possible exception of those of the caffeinated variety), your posts might be less prone to misinterpretation. As they stand, more than a few members of this forum seem to be having trouble grasping any clear direction of meaning from several of them. You seem to suggest that the reason for this lies in some inherent lack of perceptiveness on the reader's part. I disagree.
 

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