Double Bass The Real Book

[TroyK]

Question tho Troy: Are you learning the tunes by the chords/key centers used in the RB, so you just know it in one key? Or you actually breaking them down into roman numerals so you can transpose to any key later on?

I am not using the Real Book to learn these tunes. I'm learning them from a combination of transcription, alternate keys and maybe a more respectable sheet of music. The Real Book chart in my mind isn't there to help me learn it, it is there to help me deal with not knowing it.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I am not using the Real Book to learn these tunes. I'm learning them from a combination of transcription, alternate keys and maybe a more respectable sheet of music. The Real Book chart in my mind isn't there to help me learn it, it is there to help me deal with not knowing it.

aaahhh. yeah that's the way to do it. I understand why you're tearing the RB apart now, especially from that last sentence. I only go by the RB changes if they're reliable. If they sound funny to me I will look for another fake book source, ask my teach, or just alter the changes myself.

Oh, I got this book recently called [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. It covers alot of typical progressions and then lots of typical alterations. 251, delayed 251, 5 of 5, 1625, 3625, Coltrane Matrix, etc. etc. My teach first got me turned on into this sort of thing. God I wish the Jazzschool would let him teach a "Tunes in 12 Keys" class again. There was so much gold to mine there. We got to break down pretty much 80% of the tune, if not all of it, into some sort of pattern. That gave us handles to altering it or whatever on the fly.

Anyways, seems like memorization and going by ear gets easier and easier once you can recognize the patterns by ear after playing through them for the umpteenth time. I think this is the kind of thing Ed's been talking about. Check out the book if you haven't seen it yet. Pretty informative.

 

[musicman5string]

I think Paul Warburton's statement was best. To paraphrase:

If you don't know a tune and read a chart, so what? Reading, whether it's written notes or chords symbols, is part of being a musician.

Some tunes you won't have a chart for, and you will need to use your ear to hear the changes. If you can't, it's time for some ear training, and I can't imagine anyone who plays an instrument who would argue with ear training.

Why are there still arguments about the situation?
Read, and hear.
Both good.

G'night.

 

[Paul Warburton]

I don't want to be disrespectful, but the idea of an old fart cutting through sh*t sounds, well, really stinky.

 

[TroyK]

I hate to wake this thread up since it didn't quite go the way that I wanted it to the last time, but there were some people who said that they want to track my progress and I'm at a milestone, so here's an update:

I've got 30 standards memorized/internalized/whathaveyou and removed from my Real Book, which I'm still on track to throw off of a bridge or into a firepit or some other such dramatic thing on Jan. 1, 2007.

Those 30 songs are standards. They are not the only 30 songs I know, but they are among the ones that I was carrying a RB around with me because I didn't know. Examples of songs that I know that are not on that list of 30 are: Kenny Barren's "Voyage", Hank Mobley's "Funk in Deep Freeze", Lee Morgan's "Totem Pole", Tom Harrells "Moon Alley". I've got those on a different list and it will all become the same list next year at some point.

Also not included on this list of 30 are any standard blues or rhythm changes tunes. I can do that too, it's just not related to this particular goal.

I'll think I'll get 10 or 15 or maybe 20 more this year and then I'll just have to go out into the world and deal with it, which I've been doing more and more of as I go through this process.

My method for learning them has been "everything". Reference recordings, transcribing, analysing the changes, singing the melody/playing the roots, playing the roots/singing the melody, melody and roots on the piano (really hard for me), roots with the left hand/3rds, 7ths and maybe an extension with the right hand (less hard for me), playing the changes on guitar, etc.

I've got this list now on the wall in my practice room and I spend a few hours a week testing myself on what is on there. As I digitize my music collection through iTunes, I'm creating a playlist of all the versions of those songs I own and playing it on random and dealing with it as I realize what song and what key it is, not entirely different than being on the gig sometimes, except that I'm not usually on the gig with Joe Henderson or Billy Higgins. :-|

It's really helping my playing. I think that when I get over this hurdle, it will help more because I start attending to other things about my playing that need my attention, but for now, it's just a hurdle for me to get over and I'm getting there.

I still and will always, I'm sure, read charts at gigs; the bride and groom's obscure first dance tune or whathaveyou, but I'm getting away from it for these standards.

There's your update. Hope you are all well.

-tk

 

[Paul Warburton]

Troy, it sounds like you've gotten your own handle on all this and i'm happy to see that you're still wrestling with this one!
Funny, last night, I ran into a completly new situation: I did a piano/ bass duo gig at a local high $ steakhouse. The new part: The piano player....who I didn't know, shows up with a lap-top computer loaded with all the real books, and including all those Bill Evans books that are out on disc!
As he sat there with the light from the computer screen shinining up on his face, I thought " Here we go...me against a computer" I said: Let 'em fly.....of course, there was no problem. He called them, but I still had to count them out for him, because he had no idea of tempi......
This was a new one for me.....what do you think?

 

[anonymous8547j7d7b]

Troy, it sounds like you've gotten your own handle on all this and i'm happy to see that you're still wrestling with this one!
Funny, last night, I ran into a completly new situation: I did a piano/ bass duo gig at a local high $ steakhouse. The new part: The piano player....who I didn't know, shows up with a lap-top computer loaded with all the real books, and including all those Bill Evans books that are out on disc!
As he sat there with the light from the computer screen shinining up on his face, I thought " Here we go...me against a computer" I said: Let 'em fly.....of course, there was no problem. He called them, but I still had to count them out for him, because he had no idea of tempi......
This was a new one for me.....what do you think?

There's a pianist friend of mine who has a similar system. He has a website providing sheet music &/or backing tracks. He also does a lot of work accompany "vocalists" during workshops - and 2 weeks or so later when they invariably turn pro The laptop has a massive library of lead sheets, instantly transposable. I assume he's found a further use for his website stuff - an excuse not to engage his brain for a lot of the guff the poor guy has to sit through !!

 

[jallenbass]

He had no idea of the tempi and he's playing with THE Paul Warburton. That just seems wrong...

 

[musicman5string]

Question: Do you guys know the melodies to the tunes you "know" also? For example: I have a list of about 220 tunes that I constantly review and work on, so I consider myself "knowing" these. I can probably play the melodies to about half. The other half, not so much. So I've been trying to play through them with the bow, for example, ballads like "My Foolish Heart", "If You Could See Me Now", "Someone To Watch Over Me"...etc. I make sure I practice those melodies arco when no one else is around....because at present it sounds like poo. Not for long though.
Anyway, do you consider melodies when you say you know a tune?
I've called tunes on gigs and the pianist will say "Ok, great; you play the head".....I love to say "Sure, no problemo".

 

[Paul Warburton]

Question: Do you guys know the melodies to the tunes you "know" also? For example: I have a list of about 220 tunes that I constantly review and work on, so I consider myself "knowing" these. I can probably play the melodies to about half. The other half, not so much. So I've been trying to play through them with the bow, for example, ballads like "My Foolish Heart", "If You Could See Me Now", "Someone To Watch Over Me"...etc. I make sure I practice those melodies arco when no one else is around....because at present it sounds like poo. Not for long though.
Anyway, do you consider melodies when you say you know a tune?
I've called tunes on gigs and the pianist will say "Ok, great; you play the head".....I love to say "Sure, no problemo".

Yes! Glad you brought that up! Melody playing is (to me ) as helpful as knowing the lyrics. Put all these things together and you become a ' Force to reckon with!
It's as much fun, as you say, to be able to give the singer the correct lyrics to a tune, as it is to offer a 'no problemo' about the playing of the melody!

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Lessee, melodies I know
STELLA
THESE FOOLISH THINGS
BODY AND SOUL
ALL THE THINGS
SOLAR
ISN'T IT ROMANTIC
ROUND MIDNIGHT
TOO LATE NOW
I FALL IN LOVE TOO EASILY
MY ROMANCE
MY FOOLISH HEART
NEARNESS OF YOU
I HEAR A RHAPSODY
STREET WHERE YOU LIVE
YARDBIRD SUITE
THREE AND ONE
TRICOTISM
OVER THE RAINBOW
MOON RIVER (hey, I like it. nice ballad in 4)
I'M AN OLD COWHAND
I REMEMBER YOU
ALONE TOGETHER
BEAUTIFUL LOVE
YOU AND THE NIGHT AND THE MUSIC
STARDUST ( verse too)
GETTING SENTIMENTAL OVER YOU
IN A SENTIMENTAL MOOD
SERPENT'S TOOTH
SMOKE GETS IN YOUR EYES
WELL YOU NEEDN'T
plus a bunch of blues heads.

I need more Monk in there. And some Ornette (besides TURNAROUND...)

 

[Paul Warburton]

Lessee, melodies I know
STELLA
THESE FOOLISH THINGS
BODY AND SOUL
ALL THE THINGS
SOLAR
ISN'T IT ROMANTIC
ROUND MIDNIGHT
TOO LATE NOW
I FALL IN LOVE TOO EASILY
MY ROMANCE
MY FOOLISH HEART
NEARNESS OF YOU
I HEAR A RHAPSODY
STREET WHERE YOU LIVE
YARDBIRD SUITE
THREE AND ONE
TRICOTISM
OVER THE RAINBOW
MOON RIVER (hey, I like it. nice ballad in 4)
I'M AN OLD COWHAND
I REMEMBER YOU
ALONE TOGETHER
BEAUTIFUL LOVE
YOU AND THE NIGHT AND THE MUSIC
STARDUST ( verse too)
GETTING SENTIMENTAL OVER YOU
IN A SENTIMENTAL MOOD
SERPENT'S TOOTH
SMOKE GETS IN YOUR EYES
WELL YOU NEEDN'T
plus a bunch of blues heads.
I need more Monk in there. And some Ornette (besides TURNAROUND...)

Nice, rounded out head possibilities...I like Moon River too. Tell me, Mr. Fuqua, what determined your choice of Tricotism:
1.You like the tune.
2.A nod of respect in Mr. Pettifords direction.
3.Just expected of you...being a jazz bassist and all.
4.To prove that playing a difficult head in the original key of Db doesn't even make you break a sweat.
And lastly....you don't want to be the only jazz bassist in creation who can't do it. ( or won't )
I'm thinking, also, that you're opening a can of worms!
I'm thinking of doing it as a ballad in the key of G.....

 

[Ed Fuqua]

UNKA PW - I had a week where it got called on me three times and the last time I hadda go ahead and learn it, since the ****ing piano player TOLD ME it was "going to be the bass feature". Not "what would you like to do for the bass feature?" but "and TRICOTISM is going to be the bass feature." My response of "Cool, you got the head, right?" didn't go over.

It's a great tune and all, but there are other heads out there. The first time it got called, I'm on a trio gig with a pretty nice guitar player and piano player (Don Higdon fell by that gig) and it went kind of like

GUITAR - Let's play a bebop head unison, TRICOTISM. 1, 2...
PIANO - Wait a minnit, why don't you ask the cat what HE wants to play?
ME - Especially since I don't know it.
GUITAR - Well what do you wanna play?
ME - SERPENT'S TOOTH?
EVERYBODY - Cool....

 

[musicman5string]

Yeah, I never did learn Tricotism...I feel like I really SHOULD know it, but it's never gotten called on me.....alot of bassists seem to know it.
I need to make list of tunes I feel I SHOULD know but don't.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Yes! Glad you brought that up! Melody playing is (to me ) as helpful as knowing the lyrics. Put all these things together and you become a ' Force to reckon with!
It's as much fun, as you say, to be able to give the singer the correct lyrics to a tune, as it is to offer a 'no problemo' about the playing of the melody!

Amen.

 

[Paul Warburton]

UNKA PW - I had a week where it got called on me three times and the last time I hadda go ahead and learn it, since the ****ing piano player TOLD ME it was "going to be the bass feature". Not "what would you like to do for the bass feature?" but "and TRICOTISM is going to be the bass feature." My response of "Cool, you got the head, right?" didn't go over.

It's a great tune and all, but there are other heads out there. The first time it got called, I'm on a trio gig with a pretty nice guitar player and piano player (Don Higdon fell by that gig) and it went kind of like

GUITAR - Let's play a bebop head unison, TRICOTISM. 1, 2...
PIANO - Wait a minnit, why don't you ask the cat what HE wants to play?
ME - Especially since I don't know it.
GUITAR - Well what do you wanna play?
ME - SERPENT'S TOOTH?
EVERYBODY - Cool....

Your response to the first piano player calling Tricotism as your bass feature :Cool..you got the head right? was perfecto!!
I love it when the so called leader tells you what you are
going to do and then...BANG...he's counting off the mother before you ever have a chance to say you don't know it!

 

[musicman5string]

Here's some other tunes I don't know but probably should; I know they've gotten called in the past with an air of "Whatdaya mean you don't know that??!!" at some gigs:

Unit 7
Emily
As Time Goes By
Stardust
Naima
Sweet and Lovely
Mack The Knife
I Mean You
I Remember Clifford
Take Five (Ughh....what's the bridge again?? LOL)
Lover
Just You Just Me

 

[musicman5string]

BTW, what does everyone play in the 13th and 14th bars of "How Deep Is The Ocean?" I usually play a B7 (if we're in the key of Cminor/Eb major)...

 

[WillBuckingham]

Yeah, I never did learn Tricotism...I feel like I really SHOULD know it, but it's never gotten called on me.....alot of bassists seem to know it.
I need to make list of tunes I feel I SHOULD know but don't.

It lays out a lot nicer on upright than a lot of more popular heads that bassists like to play unison.

 

[Jeremy Allen]

Anyway, do you consider melodies when you say you know a tune?

There's that joke about the singer who gets a request on a gig, and she's not sure if she knows the words but she asks the pianist and he says "Don't worry, I know it and I'll get you through it." So they start playing it, she sings what she knows, and when she gets to a spot where she can't remember the words she looks to the pianist for help. He winks at her and whispers confidently "Bb minor seven, Eb seven, Ab..."

I certainly don't consider myself to truly know a tune if I don't know the melody. How could I? What would I sing if someone asked me to hum a few bars, the roots of the chords? That's not "the tune." I've had this experience recently with my students, who come in with a tune prepared and they don't know the melody (and neither do I) and we try to play it and quickly realize what a waste of time it is, two bassists hacking through chord changes rendered meaningless by lack of context. On a similar note, I find that, although I'm not one of those sticklers who insists one should know all the lyrics to every tune they play, a knowledge of the lyrics is the best way to come to a sensible phrasing of the melody. I wish I had a nickel for every flat, straight reading of the melodies of "All The Things You Are," "I Remember You," and "Stella By Starlight" I've heard that have been remedied by an understanding of the lyrics and the phrasing contained within.

But, anyway, I've definitely made it through lots of gigs playing bass on tunes I don't "know..."