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Double Bass The Real Book

And no doubt reading is a valuable skill - I won't contest any of that. That's sort of a separate subject tho - IMO not what this thread is about. What you're describing is that you use charts to "get by". If you have to read something, it's not internalized. Period. I don't see what's wrong with stating that as a fact. Maybe it's hard for some people to admit?

What part of my saying "that still leaves thousands of them that I don't have a clue about" is it that sounds like I am avoiding stating a fact or not admitting something? And sorry Huy, but it is hardly a major derail to respond to your statement about "faking it" when reading.
As for my reading charts to "get by", if that is how you want to see it, go ahead. I've gotten lots of work by being a good reader. I've also gotten lots of work because I know some tunes. They are both valuable skills and I think it is not very productive to think of either one as some how less than the other. We all find our own balance somewhere between the player with "ears like Dumbo" and the player who "can read fly$".
Yes, if you are playing Standards having as many of them memorized as possible is something I agree with. Being able to play them in several keys will benefit you as well. But as a freelancer playing a couple dozen gigs a month, often with people I have never met, I can say that if I am handed a chart by someone, I have no issue with having a look at it. If it is just a "Real Book" chart it is rarely needed. If it is a chart I haven't seen before, even if it is a tune that I know, I am going to check it out for a chorus as we play. If they have some funky changes in there and they happen to like them, it is nice to know they are coming. And it's always nice to make them happy by playing it the way they think is "right" the first time, even if you could hear what they did and have it by chorus #2.
 
Huy--Actors are not speaking extemporaneously, so by your reasoning, your analogy does not apply.

You are inventing arbitrary requirements for "great" musicians that have nothing to do with how they sound. I don't care if you have a chart, a fingerboard diagram, the circle of fifths, a comic book, or your music school diploma in front of you. Either you can blow or you can't.

In answer to your question, I don't know any great musicians who MUST rely on a chart, but I know plenty who chose to. Generally, they take a quick glance at the chart, and off they go. They know the RB really, really well, but they don't obsess over playing from memory. I am sure they would be amused if you scolded them for not having the music "internalized".

By the way, the iRealb (ipad real book) has a 1300 song collection. Good luck with that.
 
Then there was that time about 10 years ago that Chris Potter called Dave Binney to sub for him for a week with Jim Hall. I think it was at Village Vangard. Dave borrowed a Real Book and put it right there on the stand. Word is that Jim was curious about it but happy with the results. NOT recommended, do not try and emulate it, but it is an example of a great player needing charts for standards. We do agree that Dave is a great player, yes? And also yes, if he was focused on standards I am sure he would learn a bunch of them.....
 
Learn tunes that you love, and want to play, by ear; use charts to get by on gigs so that you can play with other people. Forget about learning "the whole Real Book;" how about learning every song on your five favorite jazz records? That'll get you closer than you might think to hanging on the bandstand with people who, like you, have approached their repertoire from the standpoint of things they love and want to play rather than things they think they ought to know.
 
Learn tunes that you love, and want to play, by ear; use charts to get by on gigs so that you can play with other people. Forget about learning "the whole Real Book;" how about learning every song on your five favorite jazz records? That'll get you closer than you might think to hanging on the bandstand with people who, like you, have approached their repertoire from the standpoint of things they love and want to play rather than things they think they ought to know.

*Like*
 
Funny old zombie thread.
Some more recent thoughts:
Can you imagine going out to hear Lady Day, Ella, Miles, Prez, Carmen, Sarah, Bird, Diz or Anita with a music stand in front of them? If I could, I think the performance would have told me a few things. What are your thoughts?
 
Funny old zombie thread.
Some more recent thoughts:
Can you imagine going out to hear Lady Day, Ella, Miles, Prez, Carmen, Sarah, Bird, Diz or Anita with a music stand in front of them? If I could, I think the performance would have told me a few things. What are your thoughts?

I think it would suck. One of the best "jazz" gigs I saw was Konitz, Matt Brewer and Joe LaBarbera. No music stands. It was as good as anything I have ever seen.
If straight ahead jazz is your thing, you need to know tunes and how to get through the ones you don't know by ear.

When I was younger, I only wanted to learn tunes by jazz musicians, Mingus, Monk, Coltrane, Duke. Then, as happens with bass players, I got thrown onto a gig with Marshall Allen of Sun Ra's band, and he wanted to do some standards. I learned them in a hurry.

I can get through a jazz gig by reading charts if I need to, if it was my thing I would not relay on them. For me, the jazz tradition (like the classical tradition) that is related to my music - thus well worth interfacing with, but not my primary art form.
If I was in a position to end up on a gig with Jim Hall, I'd hope to not need the books!
 
I don't know if this is widespread, but I've noticed a number of players who seem to "need" a sheet in front of them, even though they've obviously memorized the tunes backwards and forwards. Either they're pulling up tunes out of habit, or it's some sort of psychological crutch. A couple of them are seasoned, top local players.
 
You are inventing arbitrary requirements for "great" musicians that have nothing to do with how they sound. I don't care if you have a chart, a fingerboard diagram, the circle of fifths, a comic book, or your music school diploma in front of you. Either you can blow or you can't.
No I didn't invent this. It's part of the tradition. Just look up all the stories of Bird, Diz, and Monk other peoples teeth back in the day with standards in different keys and rhythms. You know your **** or you don't. If you don't believe me, ask Roy.



I highly doubt if the average person who didn't learn Cherokee is going to be able to play it at bright tempos and not fall apart, even with the chart in front of them, much less transpose it into other keys.

In answer to your question, I don't know any great musicians who MUST rely on a chart, but I know plenty who chose to. Generally, they take a quick glance at the chart, and off they go. They know the RB really, really well, but they don't obsess over playing from memory. I am sure they would be amused if you scolded them for not having the music "internalized".
I dont' know who you hang around with, but none of my mentors take this position. If it's their gig, virtually all of them will play without music stands or do their best to make this happen. They only need charts if it's something they really don't know and they're sure they can't hear their way through it. As I stated year ago, I saw them caught on tunes they don't know, but eschew the chart when possible. I think it's lame to name drop, but trust me, it's people that have and still play with the greatest around.

Heck, one guy not only memorizes everything, he works it until he's got it up to at least 240 bpm, and then shoots for 300 bpm just to be safe! I've asked these guys if they memorize all their material, and the response usually is "of course". It's part of being a professional in their eyes. If they're needing charts, it's because they don't have time to memorize it all, and even then it's something they'll glance at just to remind themselves what they need to do - more like reminders, not a crutch.
 
Funny old zombie thread.
Some more recent thoughts:
Can you imagine going out to hear Lady Day, Ella, Miles, Prez, Carmen, Sarah, Bird, Diz or Anita with a music stand in front of them? If I could, I think the performance would have told me a few things. What are your thoughts?

I can't imagine Bird and Diz being able to invent bebop with a chart in their faces. Monk? Miles? Bill Evans? I don't think so.

Imagine just even showing up at a session with someone like any of those you listed and apologizing to them while you looked up the tune they want to play in the RB. Even if it was an obscure tune, that would not look good!

Speaking of Mr. Evans, I think it's worth bringing up this snippet too.


I don't see how it can be more simple and real tha knowing the tune you're playing and knowing it well. Yes, 1300 tunes is a lot of material, but hey - I agree with starting with the ones you love first, but I certainly aspire to be able to play 400 tunes by heart. 1300? Maybe someday - who knows if you try hard enough. IMO, that's far more worthwhile than know every scale and progression out there. There's simply more soul there.
 
Forget about learning "the whole Real Book;" how about learning every song on your five favorite jazz records?

Jeremy's suggestion is great — I often tell students to play along with a record they like and learn to play all of the tunes from memory.

Anecdote: I did a workshop a couple of years ago with a student ensemble who had never played together before. I asked them what they wanted to play and the bass player called 'So What.' (Great that he knew 'So What'). Then all of the other players got out their phones to look up the chart. After we had a little reality check and agreed that we could all remember the two chords in 'So What,' we played it with no charts. The problem did occur that not everyone could remember (or hear) when the Ebmin7 chord was supposed to happen —but that points out a problem with concentration and listening.

My suggestion afterwards was that they all go back to Kind of Blue and learn "Freddie the Freeloader," "All Blues," "Blue in Green," and "So What" from memory by playing along with the record ("Flamenco Sketches" is a little trickier due to the fluid harmonic movement).

I've always been a fan of just putting on a record that I like and playing along with it. Sometimes I'll refer to a chart, but I like to get to the point where I just hear the harmony and can play it.

If it's a standard-type tune, I prefer to just play the tune (i.e. if you want to teach me a tune with functional harmony, just play it for me, and then let me play it along with you). If the tune is a complicated, modern tune with non-functional harmony (like advanced modal tunes), then it will help me to see a chart—I can see and analyze the chart theoretically and then relate that right-brain info to my left-brain intuition (the "I'll-just-listen-and-make-music-out-of-this" side of my brain). Eventually I will know that tune also, but it helps to know it from both sides — theoretical and practical.

It's very important to be able to read, but some players in some scenes don't need to read much at all. Conversely, some players in other scenes don't need to know a lot of tunes, but they need to be able to read well—and make the reading sound natural (like it is spontaneous and alive).

Since I work with a big band full time, I read a lot of charts (sometimes, very long charts). But from my days in NYC, I also maintain the "don't use a chart unless you have to" mentality. I think that has changed somewhat with younger players who mostly play original music and very few standards.

It helps to know a lot of tunes, and it helps to read very well. The two skills are not mutually exclusive.

Zojo: Of course you can't really tell on a record who is reading and who is not. If the musicianship is at a high level, then it doesn't matter. That means everyone is listening and reacting in the moment, plus all of the details of harmony, melody, rhythm, and dynamics are accurate and compelling.

Chris has a good point:
We all find our own balance somewhere between the player with "ears like Dumbo" and the player who "can read fly$".
 
With the obvious exception of a big band situation where players haven't had the time to memorize the charts, to answer my own question, here's what I came up with:

A lack of the ability to care enough about the material to internalize it.
The inability to identify with the material on an emotional level through the knowledge of the lyrics and mood.
Insecurity.
Unprofessionalism.
As we all seem to agree, watching/listening to Bird read down a chart would take, IMO, a huge bite out of his performance.
 
Huy -- You are spot on per usual. The less you do the easier it is to do better at what you're doing. Listening well and playing well is a lot to do all at once. Add reading to the mix and it gets harder. See here if you want the longer rant.

Dagnab, Huy, check you!

PW -- As the great Marshall Dodge would have said, "Yessah, chummay."
 
I can't imagine Bird and Diz being able to invent bebop with a chart in their faces. Monk? Miles? Bill Evans? I don't think so.

Surely it all depends - so in the famous Ashley Kahn book on the making of Kind of Blue, you have many pictures of the sessions where there are music stands with charts in front of Cannonball and Coltrane! :eyebrow:
 
The other interesting thing about this debate is the context of the Jazz "scene" in which you are playing.

So for about the last 15 years or more I have been going along to Brighton Jazz Club most Friday nights as an audience member and seeing a selection of the best Jazz pros in Britain, Europe and with occasional guest from the US.

I would stress that they try to put on the top pros - but they also go for a certain area of Jazz. So I could go for many months or even years of these gigs and never hear a walking bass line and every tune was an original with charts provided by the leader/composer. Standards were quite rare and didn't come into the equation. Often there have been gigs with a lot of free improv. and I have seen guys like Michael Formanek playing with local UK musicians.

I have talked to a lot of the bass players in the interval and they have said that it's obviously not the same everywhere - but in this situation, reading a chart quickly is the key skill. I have seen bands playing micro tonal stuff, tunes with written bass lines in 21/4 and other odd time stuff.

However - that club has gone into decline and a new club has set up, where the owners like to hear standards. Just recently, I saw a gig there where the first half was all standards and the musicians seemed stiff, awkward - they then played a second half which was all originals and it was like night and day - suddenly they had much more confidence and sounded way better! Horses for courses..?
 
The other interesting thing about this debate is the context of the Jazz "scene" in which you are playing.

That's the key thing—the context of the scene. Not everyone plays standards, and a lot of younger cats mainly want to play their own music/the music of their friends and musical partners. As I mention in Invalid Link Removed I think that even players who don't learn a lot of standards need to learn a canon of other music (that fits the scene they are playing in).

Bruce: Do you ever run into Dave & John Horler in Brighton?
 

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