Double Bass The Real Book

[anonymous8547j7d7b]

Here's some other tunes I don't know but probably should; I know they've gotten called in the past with an air of "Whatdaya mean you don't know that??!!" at some gigs:

Unit 7
Emily
As Time Goes By
Stardust
Naima
Sweet and Lovely
Mack The Knife
I Mean You
I Remember Clifford
Take Five (Ughh....what's the bridge again?? LOL)
Lover
Just You Just Me

Mack the Knife That the one about a shark and a bag of cement ?
Trust me, you know it. BTW best version I've heard is a Ron Carter/Houston Person duet.
I'm not yet nearly as good playing by ear as I should be (curse you Mr Sher and your beautifully presented spiral-bound set-lists ). I started doing the odd trad gig & getting aroung the simple standard progs by ear really helped me to learn "proper" tunes. I think it's easier when you realise you are learning what you hear, not what you see on the page. I found out where I really was - better than I thought, but still a big way to go.

 

[Marc Piane]

There is no shame in using a chart. If someone gives you guff for needing one... ignore them. I hate doing gigs with guys that are too proud to ever use a chart and then play the tune wrong. That said the list is long and ever changing and gigs are way more fun if people are always fishing for charts. You playing will also be more fluent on tunes you know. Whenever you are on a gig and someone calls a tune you don't know, pull out a chart, use it, dog ear it, learn it. Simple as that. All those Abersold and Sher lists are fine but it is a waste of time to learn tunes that you are never going to play.

 

[Steve Carroll]

Interesting topic you guys have here. Sorry to barge in like this (it's my first post to this forum) but I was wondering what was up with Paul W lately as I'm a Denver local and a search lead me here. I didn't actually know he'd stopped playing as long as he did but I'm glad to see he's back. Anyway, I'll start by saying that I play guitar but I have a budding young bassist (he is the reason I reg'd so he may chime in from time to time) in my 13 year old son who is in a jazz trio with his 16 year old brother (sax) and a neighbor (drums). They just started playing jazz in June of this year and they have memorized around 25 tunes thus far. They've gone the memorization route because that was the way I directed them, though, I am trying to encourage the young guy how important reading is as he's not quite as good at it as his older brother is on sax (this bassist is a converted sax player - on to bass cleff). This next bit is totally off topic so if you wish to skip it... this is your warning)


These kids have done some local gigs (a club called the D-Note, a couple of private events) and they recently scored a once a month gig at a little local place named Cafe Bliss. The drummer's teacher, Ben Makinen, just gigged there along with euphonium/trombonist Tom Ball (who teaches at our local high school) and bassist Dave Solzberg. While at their gig, my young bassist was talking to Mr. Solzberg for a bit and Dave was kind enough to let him play around with his upright (he looked to need a step ladder for the task... he's short for his age). My son started playing Killer Joe and the neighbor was there so he sat in on Ben's kit. Before I knew what was happening Tom Ball ended his break early and started the head. I struck up a conversation with Dave and he immediately commented how it was amazing that, even though my son had never played an upright bass before, he was sounding pretty good at it. I figured he was just being nice. I then mentioned that was kinda cool but that wasn't really the thing that amazed me. As they neared the B section I was sure the kid was gonna choke... but he played some decent lines. The reason I thought he'd choke? The kid is left handed and he was playing the thing backwards. Tom then called for him to solo... which he did and he managed to keep it together nicely. When the tune ended Dave really made my kid feel great by doing a mock bowing down to him... it was pretty funny... but the look on my kid's face was priceless. He felt like he was hanging with the 'guys'. Anyway, sorry for the rant, I guess you could tell I'm excited. Hopefully I'll be able to catch some of Paul's performances soon... I believe he has one coming up that I can bring the kids to. Wish there were more places they could go...

Steve C

 

[Ed Fuqua]

There is no shame in using a chart.

There is if it's the 14,312th time you've played STELLA in Bb...


Melodies I forgot I knew until this thread started me thinking about it this weekend

I CAN'T GET STARTED
MY FUNNY VALENTINE
IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU (and I thought I knew Dexter's contrafact FRIED BANANAS, but a quick attempt shot THAT down)
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT LOVE IS (or YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE ONE IS, if I get a chance to sing )
WHAT IS THIS THING CALLED LOVE
WHEN I FALL IN LOVE

 

[Marc Piane]

There is if it's the 14,312th time you've played STELLA in Bb...

I agree 100%.

My point is more about the attitude that charts are evil. They are a problem if they become a confidence crutch but if you don't know the tune you don't know it. Like I said, whip out the chart, then go home and learn it for next time.

 

[TroyK]

I agree 100%.

My point is more about the attitude that charts are evil. They are a problem if they become a confidence crutch but if you don't know the tune you don't know it. Like I said, whip out the chart, then go home and learn it for next time.

I don't disagree. Reading is a necessary part of being a musician for certain things.

However....

 

[Marcus Johnson]

FWIW, Chick Corea was reading some of his own charts when I saw him a few weeks back. But, he was also playing tunes that he hadn't played in a coupla years, and some tunes that had just been written days before. It was actually kind of funny, watching Gary Burton wrestling with Chick's 8-page charts, two music stands, and four mallets (p.s...he did just fine )

 

[Marc Piane]

I don't disagree. Reading is a necessary part of being a musician for certain things.

However....

I thought this discussion was pertaining to jazz standards.

The reality is that if you have to pull a chart for Stella people are going to look at you funny. Learning tunes is an essential part of being a jazz musician. You play them better when you lose the page.

Like I said, if you don't know the tune pull a chart. But go home a learn it. If your goal is to be a professional, it is part of your job.

 

[dar512]

*snip*

So, I’ve decided to give myself a deadline for being rid of (completely out of possession of) the thing. That date is January 1, 2007.

*snip*

How did this work out?

 

[.matthew e wengerd.]

I forgot all about this thread.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

6 years later, it's my turn. I've come to the conclusion that the biggest thing holding me back is lack of repertoire.

Finally heeding Mr. Claytons advice and learning everything by ear. I'm doing the tranposing thing but doing the roman numeral analysis on a limited basis. Melody and lyrics are king. I'm up to 50 tunes now and the RB stays on the shelf.

Our dear Mr. Goldsby also had a great blog post on this topic just recently:
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I'm also transcribing tunes and writing charts out for tunes not in the RBs. Not so much for me, but so I can hand them out and call them on sessions/gigs as well as ear training. Finally getting to the point where dissecting a simpler standard comes pretty easily. New tunes are coming fairly quickly - maybe one or two a week. I also do the needle drop thing: randomly seeking to a place in a recording and see how quickly I can catch up to where they are in the tune. I'll go through all the recordings I own for the tune doing this. If I can swing it (as well as the multiple transpositions) I think I got a pretty good grasp on it.

Anyways, interesting to read this thread again. Troy, how are you with this now, 6 years later?

 

[Zojo]

There are an infinite number of things that a jazz musician should learn. The problem is that time is finite. Everything you practice requires not practicing something else. So you need to ask yourself if doing something like committing the RB to memory is helping you become a better musician more than anything else you could be doing with that time.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

There is an infinite number of things that a jazz musician should learn. The problem is that time is finite. Everything you practice requires not practicing something else. So you need to ask yourself if doing something like committing the RB to memory is helping you become a better musician more than anything else you could be doing with that time.

That's what I was trying to get at. It's the #1 priority for me now.

If you want to attack things using mostly the 80/20 rule, knowing the material (melody, lyrics, changes) inside/out far outweighs any scalar study on any set of progressions. IMO, there is no comparison which one is more advantageous in a playing situation - assuming you have decent facility over an instrument and ears. I'm not even mentioning all the side benefits you get (ear training, melody, vocabulary development, etc). And when I say knowing a tune, just the changes alone is not enough. Without the melody, the changes are arbitrary.

IMO, cold turkey is the only option. You still have your nose buried in the paper if you're still looking at Pocket Changes when you should be paying attention to what's being played in the moment and your bandmates, much less the audience. And the listeners know, because you're not engaging them and staring at a music stand.

You either know the tune or you don't. You're either faking or you're not. I'm doing my best not to fake it anymore.

Paper is just for survival situations where I do really need to fake it - a last resort. Even if I'm forced to read a chart, I'll try to memorize the changes as quickly as possible and look away or turn the chart over once I have it down. I would like to get to the point where I can fake it by just relying on my ears. Relying on a chart doesn't help with that as much as learning by ear. Still, even that's still faking it and I don't have the tune committed to memory. The retention is generally poor unless I've had a chance to learn the melody, lyrics and changes - and be able to tranpose it through a few keys, rhythms, and feels.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Also, when I listen back on recordings for material that I've played before and after I've memorized it. The quality differences are night and day. I'm fumbling when I have to read the chart and my intonation goes off alot. Once it's been learned, I nail my intonation most of the time and my playing is a lot more fluid.

 

[Chris Symer]

And on the other hand, reading is a valuable skill and by no means qualifies as "faking it" IMO. Depending on the situation charts for standards can be a wonderful thing to have and to refer to as a point of reference. Many tunes that I know well enough to play by "hearing" my way through with people whose playing I know and trust I would be hesitant to play live as a duo with a singer in a key I have not played it in without having a chart. It happens. In situations like that a decent chart can help assure that the first chorus is comfortable. There are lots of tunes, I know hundreds of them and can fake many more by leaning on the piano player, but that still leaves thousands of them that I have no clue about. Charts sure do help those first couple of choruses. Other than that I am happy to be off them and agree that playing without them is a nicer experience and after a chorus or two you should be off of them in any case.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Realistically speaking, yes there are lots of times where a chart is unavoidable. And no doubt reading is a valuable skill - I won't contest any of that. That's sort of a separate subject tho - IMO not what this thread is about. What you're describing is that you use charts to "get by". If you have to read something, it's not internalized. Period. I don't see what's wrong with stating that as a fact. Maybe it's hard for some people to admit?

Even if I learn a tune within two choruses, I still don't have it inside out. Most people won't be able to fluidly transpose it to another key.

For the past several gigs I've played, I had all the material memorized and internalized, unless the situation dictated that I had no choice but to read from a chart. It's been alot more pleasurable once I forced myself to learn everything and not use a stand. I can catch my bands every move and mistake. And having experienced this, I'm not going back unless the situation demands it and I have enough time to focus on learning the material properly. I did it as a kid when I had to play classical piano recitals. I saw the difference then too.

The best part of it is that if my bandmates have done the same, it's far easier to get to the point where we can transcend the changes together and create some really good music - beyond just surviving the tune.

I haven't had the nerve to learn Donna Lee yet. But when I do, it'll be in multiple keys as well.

 

[Zojo]

That's what I was trying to get at. It's the #1 priority for me now.

My statement was neutral. Whether memorizing the RB is a worthwhile pursuit varies by the individual. There are plenty of people who play great music while referring to the RB. Some of them have poor memories, but make up in other areas.

I can't spell. I could spend a lot of time trying to review spelling words, until I had them permanently memorized, or I can use the spell checker and get on with saying what I want to say.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Analogies are great except when they take things out of context.

 

[Zojo]

All analogies are out of context. They are comparisons of similar things--not identical things.

Maybe you meant my analogy is weak, because it is too dissimilar from the subject, but then you should explain why.

I'm curious. When you listen to recordings, can you identify the musicians who are reading charts, and those who are playing from memory?

 

[Huy Nguyen]

It's not similar because if you said you were speaking extemporaneously, then the analogy would apply. You are not composing on the spot under a live audience unless people are sitting there watching you type. Find something that is related to composing spontaenously and you might have something. Composing around a theme.

Of course you can't tell from recordings who's reading and who's not, but you also can't tell a lot of things from recordings in general. However, the people that inspire me, most do not play from a chart, at least when it comes to playing standards.

You should be asking the inverse question. What great musician exists that MUST rely on the written page? What's so great about needing the chart in front of you to play? How does having the chart liberate you to play freely?

I'd like to see Patrick Stewart (or any famous actor) do his thing on stage with the script to Hamlet in hand. It would not be a good sign of a great actor. If actors don't need a script, why should musicians? Probably because they can get away with it.

Edit: I'm challenging for a reason, not cuz I'm trying to troll and be annoying. I see this as a manner of "settling for less" and am curious why it's justified.