The Trace Elliot V-type Club!!

[Kristjankisi]

Hello! Was going through my cupboards recently and was greeted by something I haven't used in a LONG time - my old v type combo. Can't make out the model on the back, but in case you guys are interested. Any idea on model?View attachment 3839804 View attachment 3839805

Hey Dudload, if you could take a photo more to the left(next to the power cord) and be quite a bit closer we should be able to see what the model is
I saw one of those at one point in a shop on Denmark St. some years back. That one sounded excellent.

best
Kristjan

 

[Magikbike]

Hey team Trace... been playing my gp7sm300 4x10 combo since I bought it new in... I want to say 99'...
Anyway, found a TwinValve amp out of a combo. Date sticker inside says 91'. No output. So been going through it, and so far the pcb matches the schematic. One thing that has me wondering. The grid bias is set by r3 (15k) and r4 (22k) and of course there's the two filter caps, 22uf@100v. Makes perfect sense. The thing I am wondering about is there is a 100k soldered to the bottom of the across r3, which functionally makes r3 57k. Obviously, this isn't shown on the schematic.
The "Service Manual" that I have found online talks extensively about the ss GP7 front end, but nothing at all about the tube stage.
So was this how these models had the bias set at the factory, or did someone tack this in in some sort of mod?
So I'm attaching a quattra

schematic because it's not a pdf, and this section is identical. Even the r#s and values.
Anyway, any insights would be really helpful.

 

[Microbass]

Hey team Trace... been playing my gp7sm300 4x10 combo since I bought it new in... I want to say 99'...
Anyway, found a TwinValve amp out of a combo. Date sticker inside says 91'. No output. So been going through it, and so far the pcb matches the schematic. One thing that has me wondering. The grid bias is set by r3 (15k) and r4 (22k) and of course there's the two filter caps, 22uf@100v. Makes perfect sense. The thing I am wondering about is there is a 100k soldered to the bottom of the across r3, which functionally makes r3 57k. Obviously, this isn't shown on the schematic.
The "Service Manual" that I have found online talks extensively about the ss GP7 front end, but nothing at all about the tube stage.
So was this how these models had the bias set at the factory, or did someone tack this in in some sort of mod?
So I'm attaching a quattraView attachment 4608550 schematic because it's not a pdf, and this section is identical. Even the r#s and values.
Anyway, any insights would be really helpful.

I think @Wasnex will be your man for this one.

 

[Wasnex]

Hey team Trace... been playing my gp7sm300 4x10 combo since I bought it new in... I want to say 99'...
Anyway, found a TwinValve amp out of a combo. Date sticker inside says 91'. No output. So been going through it, and so far the pcb matches the schematic. One thing that has me wondering. The grid bias is set by r3 (15k) and r4 (22k) and of course there's the two filter caps, 22uf@100v. Makes perfect sense. The thing I am wondering about is there is a 100k soldered to the bottom of the across r3, which functionally makes r3 57k. Obviously, this isn't shown on the schematic.
The "Service Manual" that I have found online talks extensively about the ss GP7 front end, but nothing at all about the tube stage.
So was this how these models had the bias set at the factory, or did someone tack this in in some sort of mod?
So I'm attaching a quattraView attachment 4608550 schematic because it's not a pdf, and this section is identical. Even the r#s and values.
Anyway, any insights would be really helpful.

It's not unusual to swap a different value resistor into the bias supply. Different tubes have different bias requirements, and I don't see any bias adjustment controls in the schematic.

I believe usually the shunt resistor, in this case R4, is changed. But the series resistor(s) may also be changed. Rather than removing and replacing the resistor, it's easier to strap a parallel resistor into the circuit. Adding a resistor across R3 will raise the bias voltage. Adding a resistor across R4 will lower the bias voltage.


Check your math: 100K and 15K in parallel = ~13K.

That's really not much of a change. I believe it will raise the bias a small amount. Higher bias will lower the current in the output tubes.


I believe the series I V-Types used pretty much the same basic output circuit.

One difference is the V-Type added adjustable bias.

Both schematics say set the bias for -42V. IMHO, its' better to measure tube current. The factory V-Type setting is 30 +/- 2mA of cathode current per tube.

The V-Type service manual suggests using Bias King probes.

There are lot's of different bias probes on the market. If you get an active probe, make sure it's rated for the 700V plate voltage in the amp. The Bias King does not list the voltage limits, but I assume it's good since TE recommended it.

 

[Magikbike]

Thanks for the quick reply.
Yep. You're right, I gooched the math. Thanks. I was thinking 57k, well, that concerning to me.
As far as biasing, my plan was to pull r3, and replace it with a 10k resistor with a 10k pot in series.
It does make sense that they would solder to the bottom of the board. That board is a bitch to pull out. The reason I pulled it in the first place was to straighten out the chassis. Both transformers were tight, but rocked on their mounts. Also, the back of the chassis was bent just enough that you couldn't even get the rear power tube in it's socket. It was originally a combo, but I think the enclosure was severely damaged. There's a fair bend to the bottom flange right by the fuses.
I got the transformer mounts flattened.
The back wall has also been straightened considerably. It's not perfect, but you can put the tubes in!
The bend to the bottom flange is improved. I think it's at the point we can call it "character".
Now comes the hardest part. I gotta wait for the caps to arrive!

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks for the quick reply.
Yep. You're right, I gooched the math. Thanks. I was thinking 57k, well, that concerning to me.
As far as biasing, my plan was to pull r3, and replace it with a 10k resistor with a 10k pot in series.
It does make sense that they would solder to the bottom of the board. That board is a bitch to pull out. The reason I pulled it in the first place was to straighten out the chassis. Both transformers were tight, but rocked on their mounts. Also, the back of the chassis was bent just enough that you couldn't even get the rear power tube in it's socket. It was originally a combo, but I think the enclosure was severely damaged. There's a fair bend to the bottom flange right by the fuses.
I got the transformer mounts flattened.
The back wall has also been straightened considerably. It's not perfect, but you can put the tubes in!
The bend to the bottom flange is improved. I think it's at the point we can call it "character".
Now comes the hardest part. I gotta wait for the caps to arrive!

Sounds like the amp took a serious hit at some point .

I would be surprised if a 10K pot in series with a 10K resistor will give you enough bias to set the tubes in range. AFAIK, You will get about half of the available bias supply with the pot maxed out.

Notice the V-Type schematic uses a 10K series resistor with a 22K pot. Also there is another resistor between the 22K pots and ground. Unfortunately, the series I schematic does not name or provide a value for this resistor. The Series II schematic say it's R3, 22K, but note there are two series resistors in this circuit; R1 is 680ohms and R2 is 3K3.

 

[Magikbike]

I was making dinner when I typed that. I was under the influence of spare ribs....
I replaced R4, not R3, with an 18K 2W resistor and a 10K pot. All the mechanical repairs are done.
Unfortunately, I'm still waiting for a variac to land, along with some TAD 12AX7s. I think I might have gotten the last pair in North America...
Hopefully, next week I'll be able to get on building a new cabinet. I have some very nice oak that was a piano in it's previous life. I think it's a fitting use. I know the lady who's piano it was will approve.
Thanks again to everyone on here for all the guidance!

 

[lofi406]

Hi all. I’ve been eyeing a V-Type preamp for a while now. Any chance any of you all have a lead? Thanks!

 

[conttador]

I just picked up this V4 from Vintage Rock N Roll in Chitown! It’s New Old Stock so this will be interesting. I am a tube amp fanatic and this will be joining a crowded field with a DB728/680/659, DB359 and an SA200!

Hoping to add a V6 & V8 is due time!

Does anyone know when they went from tolex to carpet? Were any of the V-types made under Gibson and if so what years and is there a difference in sound or quality? Does anyone know what these retailed for back then?

 

[Wood and Wire]

I just picked up this V4 from Vintage Rock N Roll in Chitown! It’s New Old Stock so this will be interesting. I am a tube amp fanatic and this will be joining a crowded field with a DB728/680/659, DB359 and an SA200!

Hoping to add a V6 & V8 is due time!

Does anyone know when they went from tolex to carpet? Were any of the V-types made under Gibson and if so what years and is there a difference in sound or quality? Does anyone know what these retailed for back then?

The V's were an all Gibson release (though I think the V4 may have been conceived / designed during Kamen ownership).

I think the hybrid V-types were all carpet, but pretty sure the V4/6/8 started out as Tolex (actually I don't think I remember seeing a carpet V8).

 

[Wasnex]

The V's were an all Gibson release (though I think the V4 may have been conceived / designed during Kamen ownership).

I think the hybrid V-types were all carpet, but pretty sure the V4/6/8 started out as Tolex (actually I don't think I remember seeing a carpet V8).

Per Wikipedia Gibson bought TE in 1998.

I don't know the specific dates when things were change, but I own an all-tube V-Type dated 1995. I also own a V6 dated 1996. So both were made before Gibson bought TE.

I also own a V8 that is dated 2000, so it was made under Gibson.

The original all-tube V-Type is the one in green tolex. This is the same amp as the later V4. I have never seen a Mk1 V4 or V6 in tolex; AFAIK they were all covered in rat fur.

The all-tube V-Type, Mk1 V4, and Mk1 V6 all use the same exact circuit cards. The V6 output card is stuffed with extra components to serve the two extra KT88s. Pretty sure the V6 had different transformers than the V4, but the transformers are physically the same size. V8 transformers are also the same size.

There was also a Mk2 V4 that used the same preamp as the V8. The Mk2 V4 output card used the same circuit as the V8, but the card was smaller. The series II V4 transformers I have seen in images look different than the transformer in the other all tube amps.

I believe all of the Mk1 hybrids were covered in rat fur. I found one in tolex but I believe it was recovered.

I have found images of Mk1 hybrid combos in both green tolex and rat fur.

Mk2 (V4 and V8) were covered in black tolex with a texture like elephant hide.

The Mk2 V4 seem more common as a combo than head. I believe the Mk2 V4 is the rarest. Never seen one in person.

Mk1 V4 and V6 service manuals are dated Oct 28, 1996. The Mk2 V8 service manual is dated Jul 13, 2000. There is a supplement to the V8 service manual for the Mk2 V4. There may have been an earlier manual for the original V-Type, but I don't remember ever seeing it.

Output circuits and output transformer designs for the Mk1 V4 and V6 were carried over from earlier models to include: VBA350, VBA400, Twin Valve, Quatra Valve, and Hexa Valve. The Mk1 output circuits are slightly different than earlier designs, but not much. The Mk2 V4 and V8 preamp and output sections are a significant departure from the Mk1 circuits.

The V-Type preamp is functionally identical to the Mk1 preamps.

Hybrid models include AH5001/300H and 600H. The hybrid service manuals I found are dated Jul 21, 1997 and Dec 29, 1999.

 

[Wasnex]

I just picked up this V4 from Vintage Rock N Roll in Chitown! It’s New Old Stock so this will be interesting. I am a tube amp fanatic and this will be joining a crowded field with a DB728/680/659, DB359 and an SA200!

Hoping to add a V6 & V8 is due time!

Does anyone know when they went from tolex to carpet? Were any of the V-types made under Gibson and if so what years and is there a difference in sound or quality? Does anyone know what these retailed for back then?

The V6 and V8 are both 400W. The V6 has a really incredible low end. IMHO this is the V6's stand out quality. It sounds huge and stays very focused and tight as you turn up. When I first plug into the amp, I always really love the way it sounds. But it has more of a baked in mid-scoop than the V8, so maybe it's a bit too sweet. The V6 is also less transparent. By this I mean the voicing of the amp tends to mask some of the tonal nuances of the bass.

The V8 is less mid scooped and more transparent, but the lows are not quite as big, tight, or focused. Some have said the V8 is more of a rocker, and I agree with this. It's more grindy/growly; the V6 excels at clean.

When I got my V8, the preamp was loaded with Sovtek 12AX7WA, which was the stock tube. I rolled tubes and got it a little close to the V6's voicing. I put a current production Mullard ECC83 in V1, standard Gold Lion ECC83 in V2, JJ ECC803S in V3, V5, V6, and V7. I originally had a Tung Sol 12AX7 in V4 because I did not want to use my last JJ ECC803S. I recently replaced the JJ ECC803S in V5 with a new ECC803S and swapped a Ruby 12AX7 for the Tung Sol. Here is the thread I made for the V8 tube rolling: Trace V8 Tube Rolling and here is the thread I made for the V4: Trace V-Type Tube Rolling

The V4 is pretty much the same amp as the V6, just two less output tubes. I have the earlier tolex covered V-Type which is the same as the V4. The voicing is very similar to the V6, but it's surprising how much louder and bigger the V6 sounds. Don't get me wrong, the V4 is not a wimp; the V6 just seems to produce some sort of gestalt.

These differences could be partly due to the tubes. The V4 and V6 are running three stock TE 12AX7s in the preamp. I swapped one of the original tubes in the V4 for a Gold Lion ECC83S/B759, and one of the original tubes in the V6 was replaced with a Tube Store Preferred Series 7025. Also the V4 is running JJ KT88s and the V6 is running Sovtek KT88s which I believe have been discontinued.

Since your V4 was listed as NOS, it may not have been turned on regularly. I would not be surprised if the electrolytic capacitors are degraded as they need to be run periodically. If the amp starts humming loudly, popping fuses, or the output tubes start red plating. Turn the amp off and take it to a good tech.

 

[conttador]

Per Wikipedia Gibson bought TE in 1998.

I don't know the specific dates when things were change, but I own an all-tube V-Type dated 1995. I also own a V6 dated 1996. So both were made before Gibson bought TE.

I also own a V8 that is dated 2000, so it was made under Gibson.

The original all-tube V-Type is the one in green tolex. This is the same amp as the later V4. I have never seen a Mk1 V4 or V6 in tolex; AFAIK they were all covered in rat fur.

The all-tube V-Type, Mk1 V4, and Mk1 V6 all use the same exact circuit cards. The V6 output card is stuffed with extra components to serve the two extra KT88s. Pretty sure the V6 had different transformers than the V4, but the transformers are physically the same size. V8 transformers are also the same size.

There was also a Mk2 V4 that used the same preamp as the V8. The Mk2 V4 output card used the same circuit as the V8, but the card was smaller. The series II V4 transformers I have seen in images look different than the transformer in the other all tube amps.

I believe all of the Mk1 hybrids were covered in rat fur. I found one in tolex but I believe it was recovered.

I have found images of Mk1 hybrid combos in both green tolex and rat fur.

Mk2 (V4 and V8) were covered in black tolex with a texture like elephant hide.

The Mk2 V4 seem more common as a combo than head. I believe the Mk2 V4 is the rarest. Never seen one in person.

Mk1 V4 and V6 service manuals are dated Oct 28, 1996. The Mk2 V8 service manual is dated Jul 13, 2000. There is a supplement to the V8 service manual for the Mk2 V4. There may have been an earlier manual for the original V-Type, but I don't remember ever seeing it.

Output circuits and output transformer designs for the Mk1 V4 and V6 were carried over from earlier models to include: VBA350, VBA400, Twin Valve, Quatra Valve, and Hexa Valve. The Mk1 output circuits are slightly different than earlier designs, but not much. The Mk2 V4 and V8 preamp and output sections are a significant departure from the Mk1 circuits.

The V-Type preamp is functionally identical to the Mk1 preamps.

Hybrid models include AH5001/300H and 600H. The hybrid service manuals I found are dated Jul 21, 1997 and Dec 29, 1999.

Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. What is the difference between an MK1 & an MK2?

I’ll definitely keep an eye/ear open when I run the amp. Is there anything I can do to ease it into use?

 

[Wood and Wire]

Per Wikipedia Gibson bought TE in 1998.

I don't know the specific dates when things were change, but I own an all-tube V-Type dated 1995. I also own a V6 dated 1996. So both were made before Gibson bought TE.

I also own a V8 that is dated 2000, so it was made under Gibson.

Actually, that's a good point ; I have a brochure from about 1995/96 that features the V-type.

The 1993 SMX brochure features the Quattra, and Hexa tube amps.

The 1998 brochure features the rebranded V-type (now named the V4), and the V6.

I have this distant memory of the realisation that Gibson weren't entirely evil, as the beloved V8 was released on their watch.

Perhaps it was just the V8, but I seem to remember (probably early on in this very thread, a few years back) somebody scrutinizing the innards of several V-type amps, and figuring out the dates, and how many of each were made. I also seem to remember a link to comments from possibly Mark Gooday, Clive Button, or Paul Stevens talking about Gibson giving the project the go-ahead (this may have been in reference to the V8 specifically).

I'm also aware that we're on opposite sides of the Atlantic, and there seemed to be a lot more rat fur on Trace Elliot products, on your side of the pond, than on mine (apparently late era Kaman products had rat fur in the U.S. but I only ever saw it on late era Gibson products in the U.K.)

 

[Wasnex]

Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. What is the difference between an MK1 & an MK2?

I’ll definitely keep an eye/ear open when I run the amp. Is there anything I can do to ease it into use?

Regarding the capacitors. There is a process for reforming electrolytics. Basically the voltage is brought up slowly to try and reform the electrolytic paste. This is not always successful. Techs sometimes bring old tubes up slowly on a variac for this reason. I don't know if there would be any benefit if you have already turned the amp on at full line voltage. Also I believe capacitor companies actually specify a reforming process for units that have been on the shelf too long, but AFAIK the process is only done once.

A few years back I bought a mint 1987 Skunk SVT off GC Used. The amp sounded great and had the lowest hum of any SVT I have played on. About a week later I was playing the amp and the lights flickered in my house and then the amp went dark. The amp blew an internal 15A fuse. Turns out one of the main filter caps had formed a dead short.

My impression is this amp probably had not been run very much since it was new. It still has all of the original tubes and the only cosmetic damage was initials scratched on the special edition brass plate that is mounted on the back grill.

I did a full cap job as I don't have the proper equipment to test capacitors. I do have a capacitance meter but not an ESR meter. I kept any capacitors that measured within their capacitance tolerance. I tried a few of them in my 69 SVT when I was troubleshooting, and some of them pulled the voltage way down. So they were not good even though they measured within the expected capacitance range.

My guess is all capacitors have manufacturing flaws, but they are not an issue as long as the capacitor is powered up ever so often. Applying power keeps the electrolytic paste in proper working condition. AFAIK, this paste functions as an insulator. If the capacitor is not powered up for a really long time the paste may allow the formation of partial shorts between the capacitor's two plates. If you bring the voltage up slowly the paste can move back into position and eliminate the partial shorts. If full voltage is applied before the capacitor has been reconditioned, the shorted area heats up and causes more damage. This is my understanding and it may not be 100% technically correct.

The Mk1s have this cosmetic and preamp.

Includes the V-type preamp, all-tube V-Type, V4, V6, as well as various hybrids and combos. Single channel (4-tube) preamp.

The Mk2s have this cosmetic and preamp.

AFAIK, includes V4, V8, and V4 combo. Have not seen hybrids or a V8 combo. Switching (7-tube) preamp with OD channel and compressor.

The 8th tube in the preamp that gives the V8 it's name is an EM84 indicator tube.

Not really in the signal path and not even shown on the schematic.

Both Mk1 and Mk2 use a variation of the Fender TMB tone stack. Extra components are added that shape the mid scoop. The Mid shift effects the upper knee of the bass tone control; I.E. how far into the mids the Bass control reaches. If the Bass is turned fully CCW, the mid shift has no effect. The overall layout of the tone stack in each series is pretty much identical. But Mk1 and Mk2 have different component values, which changes the baked in voicing.

Overall the voicing is subtly different across the entire frequency range. Mk1 has bigger lows and more of a mid scoop. Mk2 is a bit looser and leaner down low, but more transparent. They are both in the Fender tone universe; similar to your Sadowsky SA200 and Aguilar DB359.

The V4 was claimed to be a 220W amp. The V6 and V8 are both claimed to be 400W amps. My V6 and V8 make similar levels of power, but the V6 has relatively new tubes and the V8 does not. Neither is as loud as my Ashdown 427, which is pretty much a direct descendant of the V-Types.

 

[Wasnex]

Actually, that's a good point ; I have a brochure from about 1995/96 that features the V-type.

The 1993 SMX brochure features the Quattra, and Hexa tube amps.

The 1998 brochure features the rebranded V-type (now named the V4), and the V6.

I have this distant memory of the realisation that Gibson weren't entirely evil, as the beloved V8 was released on their watch.

Perhaps it was just the V8, but I seem to remember (probably early on in this very thread, a few years back) somebody scrutinizing the innards of several V-type amps, and figuring out the dates, and how many of each were made. I also seem to remember a link to comments from possibly Mark Gooday, Clive Button, or Paul Stevens talking about Gibson giving the project the go-ahead (this may have been in reference to the V8 specifically).

I'm also aware that we're on opposite sides of the Atlantic, and there seemed to be a lot more rat fur on Trace Elliot products, on your side of the pond, than on mine (apparently late era Kaman products had rat fur in the U.S. but I only ever saw it on late era Gibson products in the U.K.)

My collecting actually started in Europe and I bought my V8 in Lokeren Belgium. It was a long drive. During my time in Europe I spent lot's of time looking at gear on Ebay and sites like Kleinenzeigen. The cosmetics for the V-Types did not seem any different from what I have seen in the US. I saw plenty of rat fur covered MK1 V-Type speakers and amps. I bid on quite a few of them.

Other gear I brought back with me include: Matamp GT120 with matching 412 cab, Marshall 1959 Super Lead, and a Hiwatt DR103.

My impression is the original V-Type series had the green Tolex, the gear I am calling Mk1 had the rat fur, and gear that I am calling Mk2 had the elephant hide Tolex. I believe these were three distinct product lines. No idea if there was ever any concurrent production, but there was some overlap in availability.


V8 with matching 810 .

I did some Googling. AFAIK, Mark Gooday left TE in 1997. Clive Button developed the VA series and Valve series that preceded the V-Types. So the Mk1 output section is pretty much his design. Andy Ewen is credited on the Mk1 service manuals as designing the V-Type preamp. Paul Stevens developed the Gibson era MK-2 V-Types and earlier guitar amps like the Velocette and Bonneville. Looks like Clive Button may have developed the Super Tramp.

It looks like the guitar amps may have been all tolex but the cosmetics and fonts varied. Some looked similar to the original V-Types, some were covered in tolex but had a fabric front panel like the Mk1 V-Types, and some had black tolex more like a Mk2 V-Type.

I will reserve judgement on Gibson. If you don't know, they licensed the Orange name for a while in the 90's. My understanding is the reissue Orange amps were built and financed by Matamp. These amps did not sell well and Matamp was never paid. Gibson jumped shipped and returned the license to the original owner (Cliff Cooper).

The current Orange was formed from that mess and there seems to be hard feelings from Matamp to this day. However, it seems to me that Matamp should actually be upset Gibson rather than Orange.

Hopefully Gibson will do better with their acquisition of Mesa .

 

[Darren Christie]

Better late than never I suppose.
I love the sound of my old V-type (I assume its a v4?). I'm currently running it into an old EV PA bin and it sounds great. Mostly playing an old fender squire jazz fretless.
I'm in Victoria, Australia btw.

 

[Wasnex]

Better late than never I suppose.
I love the sound of my old V-type (I assume its a v4?). I'm currently running it into an old EV PA bin and it sounds great. Mostly playing an old fender squire jazz fretless.
I'm in Victoria, Australia btw.

View attachment 4871858 View attachment 4871864

Congrats. Model 5001 is a hybrid. It has the V-Type preamp mated to a solid-state output section.

 

[Dave Leighton]

Better late than never I suppose.
I love the sound of my old V-type (I assume its a v4?). I'm currently running it into an old EV PA bin and it sounds great. Mostly playing an old fender squire jazz fretless.
I'm in Victoria, Australia btw.

View attachment 4871858 View attachment 4871864

Not the V4. AH300, Hybrid with tube Preamp and mosfet power. Great amp in its own right. Have had a few. Played one through a Ashsdown ABM 4x10 for about 10 years.

Have one of the AH600 right now.

 

[Dave Leighton]

Quite honestly, when someone says "what is warm"? When talking about tone, this would be it.