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Theory question - E#?

#41
oniman7 said:
D'oh! You're right. I abandoned the whole tone scale and started just listing the intervals I wasn't sure of. Should have left that part out.

Wouldn't it be an E# augmented triad though?
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Nope - you said A C# F. Not even an E# in that.
 
#42
oniman7 said:
Easy answer is yes. I don't know if that's the proper chord name, but it would be seen as a minor 6.
If you were playing an augmented, you would most likely have minor 6, I believe.
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When I see a minor 6 chord, I think of a minor triad with a major 6. Therefore an Am6 would be A C E F#. The interval of A to F is a minor 6, but when used in a chord symbol, it would be written as a b6 or b13. But I agree with Pacman, A C# F would more likely be an F+ in 1st inversion, because a major triad with a b6 is not very common. At least I have never seen one.
 
#44
TOG said:
Theory question: I have heard that, for example, a F# is very, very slightly higher in frequency Vs a Gb. Anyone else ever hear of this? Is there any truth to this? Why or why not theory-wise?
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This has to do with temperament. Different tuning systems have been used as western music has evolved. Pythagorean tuning was used until the Renaissance when they adopted meantone temperament. The tunings were built on perfect 5ths, but this caused other intervals to be out of tune (to our ears today). So an F# would be about 20 cents lower than a Gb. Today we use equal temperament which allows an instrument to play equally in tune in all keys. It was necessary to adopt this tuning for an instruments like the piano, otherwise there would be too many keys!
 
#45
oniman7 said:
I said A c# C# like the OP did.

If there's an E# note in whatever he's reading, wouldn't it be an E# augmented triad?
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Sorry, I misread someone else's response as yours.

Assuming you asked if A C# E# would be an E# augmented triad, the answer is still no. That would be E# G## B##.
 
#46
Pacman said:
Sorry, I misread someone else's response as yours.

Assuming you asked if A C# E# would be an E# augmented triad, the answer is still no. That would be E# G## B#.
Click to expand...
Typo there, I think Jon. I'm sure you meant E# G## B##?

Enharmonically speaking, that's the same pitches as E# (or F), A and C#, so I can see what oniman was driving at.

(An aside - I know this is a purely academic discussion in many ways, but I think understanding this stuff does help people to really get a grip on concepts like key signatures, enharmonic equivalency and the cycle of fifths.)
 
#50
Pacman said:
Sorry, I misread someone else's response as yours.

Assuming you asked if A C# E# would be an E# augmented triad, the answer is still no. That would be E# G## B##.
Click to expand...

You said you would read A C# F as an F+ triad in first inversion.

Since, in the OP's case, there is an E# as opposed to an F, wouldn't that be an E# augmented triad in the first inversion?

Same thing, but I'm trying to get it in the right context of the OP
 
#55
oniman7 said:
You said you would read A C# F as an F+ triad in first inversion.

Since, in the OP's case, there is an E# as opposed to an F, wouldn't that be an E# augmented triad in the first inversion?

Same thing, but I'm trying to get it in the right context of the OP
Click to expand...

When you are figuring out the inversion of a triad, you always look for the simplest way to stack it in thirds, ignoring the accidentals. So A C# E# is stacked in thirds because it is spelled A C E (ignoring the accidentals). Enharmonically, that is the same as G## B## E#. In that case, take away the accidentals you have G B E, which can be rearranged to make a triad E G B. So in that case you would have an E#+ triad starting on the third, making it first inversion. Enharmonically, they sound the same, but theoretically they are different. This can be confusing, I know, but hopefully it makes some sense.
 
#56
I'm fairly familiar with the above, but I wasn't sure if we were starting on an F or an E#. That was my confusion.

And now I'm pretty sure it doesn't even have to be an inversion. It just looks to me like an A+.

However, if it was, it would be an E# augmented in first inversion as opposed to an F, correct?
 
#57
TOG said:
Theory question: I have heard that, for example, a F# is very, very slightly higher in frequency Vs a Gb. Anyone else ever hear of this? Is there any truth to this? Why or why not theory-wise?
Click to expand...

Never heard of that and I'm dubious. By whose measure?

Think of a piano. E# and F are played on the same key. Same with a bass - same fret (or "stop" on a fretless or DB) for both notes.
 
#58
oniman7 said:
So which is it?
Can you take the E# and replace it with its enharmonic F to make it an F augmented?
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*If* you replaced the E# with it's enharmonic F, yes you could do that. Then you'd have F A and C#. F augmented.

An F Augmented isn't E# A C either.... right?
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Correct. Replacing the E# with F would give you an F Major triad.
 
#59
oniman7 said:
And now I'm pretty sure it doesn't even have to be an inversion. It just looks to me like an A+.
Click to expand...


As the OP stated in the very first post:

t77mackie said:
http://www.cyberfretbass.com/theory/chord-construction/3-note/part-3/page3.php

OK, I was reading that^ page about chord theory. They are explaining how to make an A+ (augmented) chord / arpeggio from an A major. Here's the quote that made me go, "Huh... really?"
Click to expand...

However, if it was, it would be an E# augmented in first inversion as opposed to an F, correct?
Click to expand...

No. An E# augmented triad can ONLY be E# G## B##.
 
#60
Pacman said:
As the OP stated in the very first post:





No. An E# augmented triad can ONLY be E# G## B##.
Click to expand...



So does that mean it can't be an inversion at all? You'd have to use a minor 6 of the A to make it an F Augmented, since an A augmented triad can't be A C# F, right? It would have to be an A C# E#

So then the only way it could be a first inversion of the E# would be if the other two notes were G## and B##, correct?


A+ just makes more sense to me, anyways.
 

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