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theory - Why do we call D# Eb, but also call Db C#?

#41
there was a thread about this recently.

if you can find any music theory resource, this is the topic called enharmonics, or enharmonic spellings.

the two notes *are provably different*

however,

in an equal-temperment world (any fixed pitch instrument such as piano, string instruments with frets) they sound exactly the same.

that being said, if your asking why we use one flat name for a half step down, and a sharp name for Db/C#, it basically goes back to C# being a more comming spelling of that note than Db.

Db is the forth flat to appear in order (Ab major scale)
C# is the second sharp to appear (D major scale)

you can absolutely use either spelling interchangeably, in this specific scenario.

the spelling becomes a matter of correct/incorrect once we incorporate musical context.
 
#42
Aside from theory, there is a common experience or common knowledge reason. People learn "E" and "go down from there". People learn "C" and "go up from there". Eventually you learn "D" and "A" and so forth. E and C are starting points.

I know that's a bad/pathetic reply, but you see what I mean...

YMMV
 
#43
I'm pretty weak on theory, but am trying hard as I can to pay attention and hold onto anything I learn.
I think the name of the game is to construct a scale so that non-traditional notes don't have to appear, namely Cb/B# and E#/Fb. I have heard-tell that you will see them in Jazz, but that's probably just to make the "math" work... Not really sure why, probably just my weak reading skills, but I typically motor right through if I'm playing something for the first time and see a #. If a "b" comes up It kinda takes me a sec...
 
#45
Killed_by_Death said:
When referring to tunings, Eb-Standard is quite widely recognized as a half-step down from E-Standard.

However, if we go a step & a half down that's called C#-Standard, why?
It's also Db-Standard, but I've never seen it written out as such.
Click to expand...
In writing all the black keys can be written with the flat note or the sharp note depending on the direction of the line. If it goes up we use sharp if it goes down we use the flat note for chromatic tones that are not in key signature. Of course there is all the enharmonic stuff with the key signatures that I'm sure it was posted in here... Because we tune down from E to Eb it is common to call it Eb rather then D# and it sounds meaner too LOL
 
#48
Killed_by_Death said:
When referring to tunings
Click to expand...
You’re talking about jargon used, not by the whole of musicians, but by guitarists, and by extension, bass guitarists.

It doesn’t matter. It’s just an esoteric idiom. Guitarists use “tremolos” to cause a vibrato effect to their notes. Electric guitarists- bass or otherwise- use “cords” (thin ropes?) to electronically couple their string instrument to its amplifier.
 
#49
Theoretically it's either or, it's just sticklers for some arbitrary code of writing out notation say "This is how it is!"... but it's writers choice. Classical composers most likely agreed that it be that way and it stuck.

Bb is A#, but I bet I'll get called on it(please don't you're right, agree to disagree, blah blah...). but doesn't change what it is....

I personally have always tought in terms of ascending and descending, going down it's Bb and going up it's A#, and I say it that way at rehearsals to the dismay of our keyboard player..."You mean Bb"

Of course if I was sight reading I'd have to adjust to what was written. I haven't read music in years so it's not an issue, just helps my mind to stay focused and pay attention to other details.
 
#51
Killed_by_Death said:
When referring to tunings, Eb-Standard is quite widely recognized as a half-step down from E-Standard.

However, if we go a step & a half down that's called C#-Standard, why?
It's also Db-Standard, but I've never seen it written out as such.
Click to expand...

music theory and our notation system is a cumbersome system that was developed in the dark ages, it works better for piano where there is one key one note, on a guitar or bass you have multiple places to play that note ...
 
#53
Groove Master said:
It is noting right from the beginning that it is a theoretical key, not a practical one ;-)
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Theoretical keys "exist"! They just aren't used very often in actual practice, because the enharmonic equivalent is easier to read (and therefore more "practical") 99.999% of the time.

F-flat major - Wikipedia

Consider a song like Elton John's "I'm Still Standing" where the verse is in A Major and the chorus is in the parallel A Minor. If you were performing that song up a major 3rd (maybe your singer has a different vocal range than Elton) then in my opinion, it would so much easier to notate C# Major/C# Minor as opposed to Db Major/Db Minor (or even Db Major/C# Minor).

But hypothetically if I did say "it modulates from Db Major to Db Minor," everybody would know exactly what I'm talking about. It's not confusing or ambiguous: For each major key, there exists a parallel minor key. If Db Major "exists" then logically Db Minor must also "exist."
 
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#54
StatesideRambler said:
Systems of notation evolved over long periods and that means that they’re a kind of patchwork. A lot of musical things we take for granted today were just not done a couple hundred years ago so there was no corresponding notation. As we began playing those things, adventuresome spirits that we were, we had to adapt the accepted notation to the new ideas. If I may quote my niece, “AWKWARD!!”
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly this. Notation is a kludge. However, retraining everyone to adopt a new approach wasn't on back when, and is still unlikely to fly now.

It is also a reason why many 20th c. theorists used an integer model of pitch. (C=0, C#/Db =1 etc.) Enharmonic spellings are often used in traditional theory to indicate function, (calling something a Db in A major would be peculiar in most contexts) but that often doesn't apply in post-tonal music.

So I just tell guitarists I tune my bass to set 4-23.... :D

GT
 
#55
Killing Floor said:
If I may, this doesn't sound like a theory question.
The OP is an axiom that validates a problem and addressing that problem would enable more people to learn music and ultimately that is a worthy goal.

I am a reader and I am glad that I know how to sight read. But our system of notation is not efficient and could be refreshed. It's not like someone ran out of letters, there's 12 notes. So why do we act like it's 8? Oh, I know, so we can use the word "octave" which describes a doubling of frequency, not times 8, and oopsie, the Romans ran out of letters.
Click to expand...
Don’t even get me started on why there are 60 minutes in an hour and 12 hours in half a day and WHY THE &@#% does the day start at 12am???? ;)

....its all very qwerty.
 
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#57
I dont worry about Eb, just downtune half a step. That would be miserable to play in if your instrument was tuned to E. I tune my guitar Eb (suits my pipes better).

C#... that's why I use a 5 string (also I mainly play low metal). I enjoy C# in standard on a 5 quite a bit. It's a little tighter than B.
 

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