Our drummer is very good and can play quiet but, truthfully, our rock stuff sounds like carp played at low volume. why hire a rock band and stand in front with a Db meter. We've had patrons complain that they can't hear us.
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Things Publicans Don't Get
- Thread starter Ox Boris
- Start date
It's not the drums that sound lousy played lightly it's the cymbals. A lightly tapped crash doesn't crash, high hats don't sound right. Rides don't seem to care. IMO anyway.
Actually I'm thankful that many clubs control the volume. My ears have only rung a couple of times this year! It's when an owner wants to run a rock club but wants you to play at acoustic levels that irks me.
- Jun 6, 2012
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- Disclosures
- I don't wait 30 minutes after eating, to go swimming.
Some might not like this but it's the truth. If your band can bring a crowd and/or retain a crowd for 3 sets you can play whatever you want. You can sound like fingernails on a blackboard (speaking from experience here) but so long as the register keeps ticking along the management is happy. There are a few who give a damn, curate their bookings, or just like to hear well played music but they are not the norm in my experience.
Sorry, this has been bothering me since the first incorrect usage. If I make a statement, I might imply something and you might infer something. Two sides of the same coin whose correct usage is dependent upon perspective.
in·fer: inˈfər/verb: infer; 3rd person present: infers; past tense: inferred; past participle: inferred; gerund or present participle: inferring
in·fer: inˈfər/verb: infer; 3rd person present: infers; past tense: inferred; past participle: inferred; gerund or present participle: inferring
- deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements.
"from these facts we can infer that crime has been increasing"
- strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated).
"the salesmen who uses jargon to imply his superior knowledge"
I saw Alice Cooper throw up in the back of a VW van!
I'm not British, I had to look publican up. I was thinking tax collector like the Gospel.
Everybody and their brother is a musician that's why band pay is so low. It makes more sense to work a day job, buy a rig that isn't cost effective, and play weekends for beer and hosting money. I fall into the weekend warrior class. Hell I'll play for free and I know what I'm doing.
There is another side to this, you know. The club owner is a businessperson. He or she has to pay their staff, pay their food and drink and routine operating expenses, and still make a profit. That's why they are in business, after all. Unless you've seen their financial statements (unlikely), you don't really know what their situation is. In business, the value of anything is regulated by supply and demand. If musicians will work for $15 an hour, then that's the supply, and that's what the demand will pay.
Any of us here, I'll wager, if we were club owners would not overpay for our operating expenses if we didn't have to, because we'd be looking at the prism from the other side.
Just something to consider. I didn't take the time to read all 5 pages of comments (my bad), so if this point has already been made I apologize for the redundancy.
Any of us here, I'll wager, if we were club owners would not overpay for our operating expenses if we didn't have to, because we'd be looking at the prism from the other side.
Just something to consider. I didn't take the time to read all 5 pages of comments (my bad), so if this point has already been made I apologize for the redundancy.
Sounds like your drummer has limitations.
Fortunately I've gigged with excellent percussionists who could deliverer the goods at any level.
THINGS (some) MUSICIANS DON'T GET
I can understand OP's feelings however I've been managing pubs and clubs around Australia for well over 20 years and before that I was a roadie for some of Australia's top bands (Paul Kelly and Dragon to name two), a Lazer and lighting operator/installer/designer for big night clubs, a musician and a DJ, so i've seen the scene from many different perspectives.
I'm going to give you a short (not so short) rundown on the venue's perspective. Take into account, this is Aussie dollars and, more importantly, Aussie pay rates for bar staff and security.
Most venues that put on live music now do so because the owner or manager is a live music fan, not to actually make money putting on the band. Why is that? Well, because it's actually very difficult to make money with live music these days as i'll show.
For example, if you put on a soloist or duo for $300 you need to sell an extra $450 just to pay the act. Here in Oz that's a little under 100 schooners (425ml glass) of beer, so you need at least an extra 25 people drinking 4 beers each to cover the act. Sell less than that (over and above your normal sales) and you're losing money on the live music. For a lot of small bars they will usually make more PROFIT from the night by NOT having a live act however as the manager/owner likes live music they will do this and take the hit of $100 or so to their profit line (still making profit.... just not as much) in order to have the vibe of live music. The thing is, this is a small bar with possibly two people on the bar on a usual night (one manager/supervisor and one staff member) and if you get the extra 25 people you need another staff member. So now you're paying over $24/hour for a bartender so add an extra $100 to the costs for the night. That's $400 extra so you need to sell an extra $650 over the bar to simply make what you would have on a normal night.
Now lets ramp this up to a band situation in a medium sized venue.
You want to put on a decent 4 piece and that's going to cost you around $800 which means selling $1200 more in drinks which is about 60 people having 4 drinks each. This is over and above what you would have in the bar on a night without entertainment so you need extra staff. You're probably looking at an extra 2 staff minimum so that adds a minimum of 4 hours each at $24 per hour or 8 hours totalling nearly $200. Your total cost is now $1000 but with these extra bodies there's a good chance that you'll want to put on some security or the local licensing police/laws will demand that you do. Two security will cost you a minimum of 4-5 hours at $45 per hour. Lets call it $400. Your costs are now at least $1400 which means selling an extra $2100 in drinks which is around 100 extra people drinking 4 drinks each. So if you get those people you're now short staffed and need more staff which brings up the costs again. You also need more security....... and on and on it goes. And all this is to just get the same PROFIT that you would get with 15-20 people in your bar on a normal night without a band or with 30-50 people listening to a soloist.
You've also got to take into account that those wages are for Mon-Fri..... Saturday pay rates are nearly $29/hour and Sunday's are over $33/hour. Security rates go up accordingly as well so costs increase again!
A big problem is that you have to take a punt with staffing and security levels for the above scenarios. If you are short staffed too often patrons get the sh1ts and don't come as often or stop coming. If you don't get a big enough crowd too often then your profit level drops or, worse still, you actually lose money on the night.
If you can convince your local patrons to pay a cover charge of $10 then you have a chance of making money on live music but that is getting very difficult these days. People under the age of 28 do not value music. They've grown up being able to either download music for free or simply copying files between each other so even if a group of youngsters like a band usually only one of them pays for the music and the others copy it. This appears to have continued on to live venues where they are happy to pay $15 or more to see some "name" DJ but won't pay $10 to see a good band.
In addition to all of this is that if you do manage to build a good live music venue with good crowds every week you're going to then be on the radar of licensing police as well as the Gaming and Racing inspectors because with any big crowd of people drinking there are always some idiots who cause trouble. Now you're looking at extra stress because it only takes the authorities finding a staff member serving a person who's gotten too drunk on your premises and you've copped one strike which includes a fine of $550-$5500. Get three of these in three years and you may lose your license. This changed recently where if you cop three strikes the licensee is banned from holding a license, so you can employ someone as licensee who you then have to sack if there's three strikes in three years. Good managers are hard to find to help run your pub and by losing your licensee you'll once again have more scrutiny from the authorities.
And you wonder why so many publicans would rather have a quiet bar with a decent acoustic soloist providing some music rather than putting on good bands.
I could go on for hours on this subject............
EDIT: I see soloists are actually pretty well paid here compared to in the US. The general going rate here is $300-450 for a decent to good soloist. Unfortunately the going rate for a decent-to-good three or four piece band is only around the $500-700 mark and gigs booking bands are rare and getting rarer.
I can understand OP's feelings however I've been managing pubs and clubs around Australia for well over 20 years and before that I was a roadie for some of Australia's top bands (Paul Kelly and Dragon to name two), a Lazer and lighting operator/installer/designer for big night clubs, a musician and a DJ, so i've seen the scene from many different perspectives.
I'm going to give you a short (not so short) rundown on the venue's perspective. Take into account, this is Aussie dollars and, more importantly, Aussie pay rates for bar staff and security.
Most venues that put on live music now do so because the owner or manager is a live music fan, not to actually make money putting on the band. Why is that? Well, because it's actually very difficult to make money with live music these days as i'll show.
For example, if you put on a soloist or duo for $300 you need to sell an extra $450 just to pay the act. Here in Oz that's a little under 100 schooners (425ml glass) of beer, so you need at least an extra 25 people drinking 4 beers each to cover the act. Sell less than that (over and above your normal sales) and you're losing money on the live music. For a lot of small bars they will usually make more PROFIT from the night by NOT having a live act however as the manager/owner likes live music they will do this and take the hit of $100 or so to their profit line (still making profit.... just not as much) in order to have the vibe of live music. The thing is, this is a small bar with possibly two people on the bar on a usual night (one manager/supervisor and one staff member) and if you get the extra 25 people you need another staff member. So now you're paying over $24/hour for a bartender so add an extra $100 to the costs for the night. That's $400 extra so you need to sell an extra $650 over the bar to simply make what you would have on a normal night.
Now lets ramp this up to a band situation in a medium sized venue.
You want to put on a decent 4 piece and that's going to cost you around $800 which means selling $1200 more in drinks which is about 60 people having 4 drinks each. This is over and above what you would have in the bar on a night without entertainment so you need extra staff. You're probably looking at an extra 2 staff minimum so that adds a minimum of 4 hours each at $24 per hour or 8 hours totalling nearly $200. Your total cost is now $1000 but with these extra bodies there's a good chance that you'll want to put on some security or the local licensing police/laws will demand that you do. Two security will cost you a minimum of 4-5 hours at $45 per hour. Lets call it $400. Your costs are now at least $1400 which means selling an extra $2100 in drinks which is around 100 extra people drinking 4 drinks each. So if you get those people you're now short staffed and need more staff which brings up the costs again. You also need more security....... and on and on it goes. And all this is to just get the same PROFIT that you would get with 15-20 people in your bar on a normal night without a band or with 30-50 people listening to a soloist.
You've also got to take into account that those wages are for Mon-Fri..... Saturday pay rates are nearly $29/hour and Sunday's are over $33/hour. Security rates go up accordingly as well so costs increase again!
A big problem is that you have to take a punt with staffing and security levels for the above scenarios. If you are short staffed too often patrons get the sh1ts and don't come as often or stop coming. If you don't get a big enough crowd too often then your profit level drops or, worse still, you actually lose money on the night.
If you can convince your local patrons to pay a cover charge of $10 then you have a chance of making money on live music but that is getting very difficult these days. People under the age of 28 do not value music. They've grown up being able to either download music for free or simply copying files between each other so even if a group of youngsters like a band usually only one of them pays for the music and the others copy it. This appears to have continued on to live venues where they are happy to pay $15 or more to see some "name" DJ but won't pay $10 to see a good band.
In addition to all of this is that if you do manage to build a good live music venue with good crowds every week you're going to then be on the radar of licensing police as well as the Gaming and Racing inspectors because with any big crowd of people drinking there are always some idiots who cause trouble. Now you're looking at extra stress because it only takes the authorities finding a staff member serving a person who's gotten too drunk on your premises and you've copped one strike which includes a fine of $550-$5500. Get three of these in three years and you may lose your license. This changed recently where if you cop three strikes the licensee is banned from holding a license, so you can employ someone as licensee who you then have to sack if there's three strikes in three years. Good managers are hard to find to help run your pub and by losing your licensee you'll once again have more scrutiny from the authorities.
And you wonder why so many publicans would rather have a quiet bar with a decent acoustic soloist providing some music rather than putting on good bands.
I could go on for hours on this subject............
EDIT: I see soloists are actually pretty well paid here compared to in the US. The general going rate here is $300-450 for a decent to good soloist. Unfortunately the going rate for a decent-to-good three or four piece band is only around the $500-700 mark and gigs booking bands are rare and getting rarer.
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in the defence of the owners out there,
they're buisiness people, not just someone paying a band and trying to chisel away at your price. if you were extremely profitable for them, ie you draw a big crowd that buys lots of drinks, or sell lots of tickets if its a theatre gig, you won't have to defend your cost.
rather than complain, it's better to be proactive and maybe do more to promote gigs, or find ways to become more profitable for them. maybe that does mean less band members. it could mean a lot of stuff.
it's also a supply and demand issue. the market is flooded with lots of professional, semi professional, begginer, and just plain awful acts out there. many of us understand why offering a 5 piece band $300 for the night seems insulting, but i also know a lot of bands that are pretty good that do take that kind of pay all the time.
they're buisiness people, not just someone paying a band and trying to chisel away at your price. if you were extremely profitable for them, ie you draw a big crowd that buys lots of drinks, or sell lots of tickets if its a theatre gig, you won't have to defend your cost.
rather than complain, it's better to be proactive and maybe do more to promote gigs, or find ways to become more profitable for them. maybe that does mean less band members. it could mean a lot of stuff.
it's also a supply and demand issue. the market is flooded with lots of professional, semi professional, begginer, and just plain awful acts out there. many of us understand why offering a 5 piece band $300 for the night seems insulting, but i also know a lot of bands that are pretty good that do take that kind of pay all the time.
Hi Bag, what is the impact of the mandatory security at the door when a venue puts on a 5 piece band? Does that apply down your way or is it a Sydney thing. We were playing at a venue on the central coast regularly but they had to dump us because the licencing police said they had to have security on the door when they have 5 piece bands but not duo's or trios.
Another issue is noise. I could write 1000 words on the issues one of our regular gigs is having with the neighbours.
Not necessarily. There have been club owners around here that have tried it. They hire good, quality bands and still lose money on live music nights and kill on the nights party music is streamed over Spotify.
Your statement, in fact your whole theory, is a wish not borne out by the facts. I have seen awful bands stay boomed because 250 of their closest friends co.e to every show. And I have seen great bands fail because theu never had enough of a built in crowd to get started good.
The quality of the musicianship has little or nothing to do with it.
Look, I agree with the morality of the situation. But a bar is a business. Theu don't care if you're skilled or not. Bring in lots.of people who buy drinks and you can play however horribly you want.
There is currently no mandatory regulation in regards to security however some local Licensing police will make "recommendations" to licensees. Ignore these "recommendations" and you'll probably find you get more visits from police and Gaming and Racing inspectors.
I have run pubs and clubs from Sydney, to Wollongong, Central Coast, Mid North Coast and Snowy Mountains. I've dealt with both good and bad licensing cops. In one instance where we ran a very popular nightclub I put in place policies and procedures in excess of what was required by the most violent venue in NSW at the time. This was still not good enough as far as the local Licensing cop was concerned. We had 12 "events" over 12 months and was therefore considered a Level 2 premises. One of the requirements was that we only use plastic after midnight (even though we'd been using plastic after 10pm since opening the nightclub) however, as It was mandated this meant that if an inspector found even one glass or bottle anywhere in the venue after midnight I face a criminal charge personally. It was at this stage that I told the CEO that either we close the nightclub or I hand in my notice.
And I won't even get started on noise complaints....
Edit.... What venue was it on the Central Coast?
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If this was true then there would be more venues booking bands. The reality is that booking bands is high-risk to your profit and your venue.
No.
Equitable exchange = fair
Terms agreed to in advance being met = fair
Supply meeting demand to set price = fair
Government price setting ≠ fair
That is free market capitalism in a nutshell. It is not perfect. Nothing is. But it is the only system that has built a strong middle class, developed personal wealth, and (this is the important one) lifted millions of people out of poverty.
AND, just because you don't LIKE something does not make it unfair.
The OP is complaining, after agreeing to terms, about not being paid for something unspecified in said terms. Assuming he is, in fact, "highly skilled" he would posses the requisite experience to know about the time needed to unload, setup and breakdown for a gig. He then could either negotiate to account for this time (his "cost" as he sees it) or not take the work, lest he be compared to the "cleaner" (BTW, I think this pejorative makes you a Janitorialist).
Instead of going to the Publican and discussing this, the OP has elected to deposit his complaint in the virtual Complaint Box of a TB forum, which is unlikely to be read by said contractual partner (formal or tacit). Beyond that, he titles the complaint "Things Publicans Dont Get" to imply some wrongdoing on the part of a contractual partner. Assuming that partner delivered on his/her end of the agreement (by paying the agreed upon amount) the OP then has no ethical ground to stand upon with his opening rant. The entire basis of his rant is "he should put himself in my shoes, but I don't care about his perspective".
It it intellectually dishonest and emotionally immature.
Better for the songs we're playing in our band.
If you're looking for objective proof, you've seriously misjudged the content and the spirit of this thread. What you're saying amounts to the grand retort of "That's just your opinion." Well, who do you think's talking? Of course it's my opinion! Would you prefer I gave you your opinion?! I sick of such fatuous remarks being made and the person who says it thinking they've made some sort of point. You haven't. I'm not here to be objective, I'm here to make my point. Don't bleat just because your subjective point hasn't been aired. Not my job.
No, that's actually the point I'm making. They don't care, resulting in the behaviour I'm describing.
I've added a couple of reasons why I think they should care, based on what's happening in my town. That's the point that seems to be being missed.
Amazing isn't it that people pretend not to care what others say and then cut about acting as if my word is law, applies to them personally as well as universally and is about to be imposed upon them against their will...
