Yes. And I can also work on making them more willing, should they agree with me. But this isn't about my band or any band or any publican or anything that happened.
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Things Publicans Don't Get
- Thread starter Ox Boris
- Start date
Yes. That's why I went on to say:
You literally cut out the bit that made your entire post unnecessary.
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Ok, let's try again...
No, the cleaner doesn't go home and practice cleaning (although the majority do probably go home and clean up after their family). Yes, you need to practice the guitar/bass/didgeridoo in order to be a competent player. However, I would say that 90% of people that work as a musician enjoy and like the instrument they are playing, I would guess that with cleaning personell it goes the other way, 90% prefer not to have to put their hands anywhere near the mess that the evening crowd made.
Again, let's go back to the part I underlined, considering both are competent at their job...
A band member may be a great musician, be excellent at his instrument, but that does not mean that they are of more value to a venue than the cleaning staff. Bands get employed because the owner wants to, cleaning staff get employed because they are 100% necessary in order to keep the establishment open (unless the owner wants to do it himself).
I am not disagreeing with the fact that you make about musicians being underpayed at a live venue (in many cases), the fact that I am disagreeing with you is that you seem to think that as an artist you deserve more than another person, just because you are an artist.
My way of seeing it is that staff at a venue (be it cleaning, bar tending, security, etc.) are paid what they are paid due to the "going rate" or "established rate" for the job they do, they choose to either accept the pay or find a different job.
Musicians on the other hand are paid what the person buying decides they are worth, and you are just as free as the rest of the staff to either accept what is being offered or move on and find a venue that will pay what you are asking. Some venues pay more, others less. The ones who pay more have a bigger selection of artists to choose from and more "named" brands, the ones who pay less have a selection of lesser known, cheaper alternatives.
And just for the record, I am not disagreeing with what you posted initially, I totally agree that live music should be better paid (so should the cleaners BTW), however, you seem to just want to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with your point of view.
A business is a monetary based system, you make money or you lose your business. Every business makes a decision as to how they want to go about the money making part. Some prefer small margins and higher turnover, others prefer elite clientele with much higher margins. Your band is your business and you are free to sell it at whatever price you want, but absolutely noone is obliged to pay what you request.
jive1
Commercial User
I had a friend that did a solo act in the 80's, and one of his big deals was "Team Drinking". He had people hammered and the clubs made a lot of money, but a few of them said he should tone it down a little. HAHA. Imagine doing that now?
The only person who has put a low value on cleaners is you.
Utter fabrication.
I'm saying that skilled labour pays more than unskilled labour. No more, no less.
Almost like it's a forum or something! And I'm hardly going to argue with people who agree with me.
I mean that thought must have struck you, surely?
I'm correcting people when they misunderstand; and defending my point when I feel it's stronger than those being made. Unfortunately I also have have to spend some time calling others out on their pure invention. Like implying that I thought cleaners were lowlifes. An outrageous slander and, given it's mode of delivery, a cheap, bullying tactic designed to isolate and unjustly denigrate.
But there's way more likes than idiotic comments, it just takes a while to pour contemptuous oil on the tempestuous Seas of Tangent and so becalm the Ratings of the Ravy Navy.
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I saw Willie Nelson jogging in Lake Tahoe.I saw Alice Cooper throw up in the back of a VW van!
Things I've learned from this thread...
#1. Publicans don't make enough money from live bands.
#2. Live bands don't make enough money from publicans.
#3. Live music is pointless because nobody makes any money from it and it causes musicians to become cleaners so they're finally appreciated.
#4. It's all the drummer's fault for not being a drum machine with a volume control.
#5. People have trouble spelling the word "guitarist" and have to keep substituting asterisks for the letters they don't know.
#1. Publicans don't make enough money from live bands.
#2. Live bands don't make enough money from publicans.
#3. Live music is pointless because nobody makes any money from it and it causes musicians to become cleaners so they're finally appreciated.
#4. It's all the drummer's fault for not being a drum machine with a volume control.
#5. People have trouble spelling the word "guitarist" and have to keep substituting asterisks for the letters they don't know.
Things I've learned from this thread...
#1. Publicans don't make enough money from live bands.
#2. Live bands don't make enough money from publicans.
#3. Live music is pointless because nobody makes any money from it and it causes musicians to become cleaners so they're finally appreciated.
#4. It's all the drummer's fault for not being a drum machine with a volume control.
#5. People have trouble spelling the word "guitarist" and have to keep substituting asterisks for the letters they don't know.
The bottom line is that if everyone in a five-piece band, did their own solo act and then stayed on to clean up after, they'd probably make a fair wage.
I reserve the full correct spelling of guitarist for the ones who don't try to drill a hole in my head with their "tone". The asterisks are for the ones who inspired "rock" drumkits with giant cymbals that can't be broken and toms you could bath your dog in, super thick skins that don't sound right unless you bash them with tree trunks. Not to mention 1000w bass amps that blow up 8x10 cabs.Things I've learned from this thread...
#1. Publicans don't make enough money from live bands.
#2. Live bands don't make enough money from publicans.
#3. Live music is pointless because nobody makes any money from it and it causes musicians to become cleaners so they're finally appreciated.
#4. It's all the drummer's fault for not being a drum machine with a volume control.
#5. People have trouble spelling the word "guitarist" and have to keep substituting asterisks for the letters they don't know.
Thank you! I needed one today!Only if someone is in need of that labour.
And as for the rest of your post:
Everyone have a great weekend. I'm learning don't take everything so seriously and to laugh at myself sometimes. Good medicine.
I think that's why he's going to outlive us all! The guy just keeps playing and I think it keeps him young...!
Bleedin' obvious. No point made. At all.
Ah, the old, "I was only joking" ploy.And as for the rest of your post:
Weak.
I agree, but mainly I wanted to thank you for not saying "could care less" (drives me $&@"in nuts).
This.
I play resort beach bars in the Caribbean. My competition is the 'guy on a boat with a guitar' that will play on an open mic night for free, open mic nights being a favorite ruse by Caribe bar owners to avoid paying professionals (with actual acts/experience/equipment).
When I told them how much I want to get paid their immediate response was 'Why should I pay you when I can get musicians for free?'. When I replied 'because I'll bring in more customers' the response is usually 'they all say that'.
Since such bars are largely transient/seasonal I can understand their reluctance to drop money for a night they really don't know will be profitable or not. I solved the issue by pinning my pay on the number of customers, i.e. $X times number of customers (I always make 'X' roughly the per person cost for couple drinks/beers).
We'd both go around at the end of the 1st set and take a customer count. If just a few customers show up the owner/manager is out nothing (no risk). If a lot show up we both make money. A win/win situation. Of course it's now up to me to 'market' the gig, get people there but I have a good reputation so a few posts on the clubs social media site, local flyers and word of mouth generally fills the place.
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jive1
Commercial User
Very good point. Even though DC is a metropolitan area, the number of rooms that can handle a Rock band at full volume is relatively small compared to all the bars and clubs in the area. Even though we have a lot of live music here, there's not that many rooms that are dedicated to hosting live music, let alone loud Rock bands.
Another thing to consider is that a lot of popular music that the kids are listening to now are acoustic based. Songs by bands like Mumford and Sons, American Authors, Lumineers, Ed Sheeran, Jack Johnson, etc. do well around here. These aren't loud rock bands by any means, and their sound is more stripped down and folky. IMO, nowadays we are surrounded by constant noise and stimuli, and serene and contemplative environments are more novel. You're more likely to see young folks in the coffee shop today than in the 80s.
