Thinking about making the jump to Tubes... input needed!

[Calaverasgrande]

One thing I have found about trying out a tube amp is that every store I have been in has a small bass room with a bunch of basses,amps & cabs jammed in them & you cannt play super loud. I never got the full feel of the head in the store. They sounded nice but nothing to start shelling out big cash for. When you get it in a good area so you can turn it up so you can hear & feel it. That is when they come into their own. So full, it may not be louder, but so much deeper & room filling

Plus one on that. I have a Mesa Bass 400, which has two input channels. At bedroom volume they sound the same. At full tilt they sound VERY different. The gainy input is very midrangey and is kind of the signature Mesa bass tone. The low gain input is much closer to an Ampeg type lower midrange focus with more of a bass low mid tone and much less upper mid/treble.
There is also a certain thing that happens when your whole band has tubes cooking. the sound loses its distinctness and everything blends together. This is a good thing!
Listen to those old R&B or rock tunes (esp southern rock). the bass and rhythm guitar and keys all gel. Its magic man.

 

[corinpills]

For me i'll not use a full tube amp again on stage. You could try a full tube pre to drive a good SS power amp. If this route works for you it'll save you the trouble and expense of going full tube.

Paul

No disrespect intended, but his completely and totally misses the point of what people like in tube amps. It's all about the tube power stage- that's why those tubes are so much bigger than the little 12ax7s in the pre. A hybrid amp is really a compromise, it just doesn't do what a great tube amp does.

Here's my advice: I have gigged for 10 years with all tube bass gear (specifically, a Trace Elliot V6) and it has never, ever failed on stage. I've had it re-tubed once and it was expensive, but I'm willing to shell out a little for tone. It's heavy, but I'm willing to grunt a little to get the sound I want.

There are tons of old Ampegs, Hiwatts and Sunns floating around that are still running after 40 years because they were made well. They weren't pieces of plastic with circuit boards slapped together in China. So my advice would to consider that: don't necessarily opt for a more recent amp because chances are it was manufactured to today's standards, which are pretty shoddy.

 

[Din Of Win]

Well... UPDATE (i highlighted some additional questions so's not to cause text-wall-sifting):

A sticky/hot Wednesday afternoon + living in a house w/o air conditioning = seeking the local music shoppe to try some tubes (and bask in glorious a/c). Everything was with an Fender roadworn P and an ampeg 4x10.

Mesa 400+ : DAMN. I liked it a LOT. I was gonna post the SAME thing a few posts before said though... i wasn't really able to crank it though, but still at the low/mid volume it sounded sweet through an ampeg 4x10 (which i tried everything through). The new price is a bit outta range, i'll zip to ebay eventually and see what the used prices look like. My caveat with it though, is that... thems a LOT a tubes in there. I know how i am. I know how i tour, where i play, etc etc... all i could think about was; more tubes, more things to break, more cost. That was the only Mesa tube head they had... are there others that replicate the same tone, but with less tubes/breakable parts? How sturdy are these with a road case?

Ampeg SVT CL : It was good. I have played out of one w/ an 8x10 a while back... but i feel i have a much metter ear for this stuff now. It was 'that ampeg sound'. I pulled out a pick, and my punk riffs came alive! Not as... i dunno... 'umphy' as the mesa. Wish i could have pushed it more though!


Ampeg SVT VR : WOAH!!! I liked this even more than the Mesa!! Everyone saying they like this in the thread is right! Again, volumes were low... but it had a similar tone to the V4, which i dug, But more power!! Seriously. I loved this head. Especially (lambast me if you will) the aesthetic! I could just picture this perfectly atop my Ampeg b25b 2x15!! Again though, out of my price range, New... but seems like used prices are still high... this will SERIOUSLY make me consider saving up more to get. I was very impressed. I doubt i'd really ever need more than a 300w tube head!


Peavey Pro-VB-3 : Meh. Not bad... not great... especially after playing the SVT VR. The look was way too cheesy for me too. I'm a HUGE Peavey fan (i have a t20 bass, a peavey 6x10, 1x15, a TNT combo and a Mark VI head)... but this head didn't "feeeel" like a peavey to me. Hard to explain... just wasn't my thing.


Markbass Classic 300 : Also not bad. But... different... than the other ones. I have no tube MB experience at all. I dunno... it seemed too 'modern' sounding for 'classic' to be affixed to it. Also SUPER pricey. I feel like i would get more 'classic' from the LM II/III and VT Bass. Pass.



Well, that was all their tube heads, and i was done making the store listen to my odd mix of metal, punk, and motown riffs. However, i stepped outside and it was still a hot mess. So, i thought, theres another shop not TOOOO far away... i'll give it a run.... Here i played through a Squier VM P and again, an ampeg 4x10.


Peavey Tour VB-2 : Now THIS was way better than the other peavey. Leatt wattage, but just sounded better to my ears. The price point was rediculously low as well... What's TB's collective experience with this amp? All tube for under 1k is highly digestable. I dug the look too!


EDEN 300T : Wooooo, lookit me, i'm Mike Watt!!! aaaand a dude comes over to have me turn down :scowl: I liked it a lot actually. Edens had an aire of Boutiquyness to me. In my mind, definetly NOT the amp of the people. But it was really nice... another one i will test more.


Orange ad200-b : I've played out of a bunch of these. It was just in a queue a guy helping me made. I'm not a fan, honestly. EVERYONE who has one of these that i have played/toured with has had significantly more trouble with these heads malfunctioning than with any other heads i know. I played a Converge riff and left it at that...


Traynor YBA-200 : DANG! another winner!! I need to try out the vintage Traynors some friends have... but i really liked this one. Also a really decent price. How do the older models compare, tonally, to this one?? Another top-contender.


So that was my Wednesday. Not SUPER in depth scrutiny... about 10-15 minutes with each head (minus the Orange).

So from the testing... my top pickes were:

1. Ampeg VR (OMG SO GOOD, so expensive :scowl
2. Mesa 400+ (i wince at the seeming destructability though)
3. Traynor YBA-200 (do like!)
4. Peavey Tour VB-2 (need to look into it more)
5. Eden 300T (also needs more investigation)


This 'jump to tubes' has been SUPER fun so far! I really want to find a Fender 300T... so if anyone in the DC/MD area knows of a place that sells them, please let me know!

Keep the reccomendations coming!

 

[pedro]

Well... UPDATE (i highlighted some additional questions so's not to cause text-wall-sifting):

A sticky/hot Wednesday afternoon + living in a house w/o air conditioning = seeking the local music shoppe to try some tubes (and bask in glorious a/c). Everything was with an Fender roadworn P and an ampeg 4x10.

Mesa 400+ : DAMN. I liked it a LOT. I was gonna post the SAME thing a few posts before said though... i wasn't really able to crank it though, but still at the low/mid volume it sounded sweet through an ampeg 4x10 (which i tried everything through). The new price is a bit outta range, i'll zip to ebay eventually and see what the used prices look like. My caveat with it though, is that... thems a LOT a tubes in there. I know how i am. I know how i tour, where i play, etc etc... all i could think about was; more tubes, more things to break, more cost. That was the only Mesa tube head they had... are there others that replicate the same tone, but with less tubes/breakable parts? How sturdy are these with a road case?

Ampeg SVT CL : It was good. I have played out of one w/ an 8x10 a while back... but i feel i have a much metter ear for this stuff now. It was 'that ampeg sound'. I pulled out a pick, and my punk riffs came alive! Not as... i dunno... 'umphy' as the mesa. Wish i could have pushed it more though!


Ampeg SVT VR : WOAH!!! I liked this even more than the Mesa!! Everyone saying they like this in the thread is right! Again, volumes were low... but it had a similar tone to the V4, which i dug, But more power!! Seriously. I loved this head. Especially (lambast me if you will) the aesthetic! I could just picture this perfectly atop my Ampeg b25b 2x15!! Again though, out of my price range, New... but seems like used prices are still high... this will SERIOUSLY make me consider saving up more to get. I was very impressed. I doubt i'd really ever need more than a 300w tube head!


Peavey Pro-VB-3 : Meh. Not bad... not great... especially after playing the SVT VR. The look was way too cheesy for me too. I'm a HUGE Peavey fan (i have a t20 bass, a peavey 6x10, 1x15, a TNT combo and a Mark VI head)... but this head didn't "feeeel" like a peavey to me. Hard to explain... just wasn't my thing.


Markbass Classic 300 : Also not bad. But... different... than the other ones. I have no tube MB experience at all. I dunno... it seemed too 'modern' sounding for 'classic' to be affixed to it. Also SUPER pricey. I feel like i would get more 'classic' from the LM II/III and VT Bass. Pass.



Well, that was all their tube heads, and i was done making the store listen to my odd mix of metal, punk, and motown riffs. However, i stepped outside and it was still a hot mess. So, i thought, theres another shop not TOOOO far away... i'll give it a run.... Here i played through a Squier VM P and again, an ampeg 4x10.


Peavey Tour VB-2 : Now THIS was way better than the other peavey. Leatt wattage, but just sounded better to my ears. The price point was rediculously low as well... What's TB's collective experience with this amp? All tube for under 1k is highly digestable. I dug the look too!


EDEN 300T : Wooooo, lookit me, i'm Mike Watt!!! aaaand a dude comes over to have me turn down :scowl: I liked it a lot actually. Edens had an aire of Boutiquyness to me. In my mind, definetly NOT the amp of the people. But it was really nice... another one i will test more.


Orange ad200-b : I've played out of a bunch of these. It was just in a queue a guy helping me made. I'm not a fan, honestly. EVERYONE who has one of these that i have played/toured with has had significantly more trouble with these heads malfunctioning than with any other heads i know. I played a Converge riff and left it at that...


Traynor YBA-200 : DANG! another winner!! I need to try out the vintage Traynors some friends have... but i really liked this one. Also a really decent price. How do the older models compare, tonally, to this one?? Another top-contender.


So that was my Wednesday. Not SUPER in depth scrutiny... about 10-15 minutes with each head (minus the Orange).

So from the testing... my top pickes were:

1. Ampeg VR (OMG SO GOOD, so expensive :scowl
2. Mesa 400+ (i wince at the seeming destructability though)
3. Traynor YBA-200 (do like!)
4. Peavey Tour VB-2 (need to look into it more)
5. Eden 300T (also needs more investigation)


This 'jump to tubes' has been SUPER fun so far! I really want to find a Fender 300T... so if anyone in the DC/MD area knows of a place that sells them, please let me know!

Keep the reccomendations coming!

FWIW, I bought the Peavy Vb and it died on me within a day. Took it back and got another one and it also died within one day.

I've had my Orange for a couple of years and have never had any issues with it. YMMV.

 

[Din Of Win]

Also... What would you all consider as a minimum wattage for a tube head for playing mid-size venues w/o PA support? My tube experience is still small... but i would think 200watts would be a decent minimum... i would think less wouldn't move enough air. I could be totally wrong though...

 

[Rickett Customs]

Because I use an 810, I wouldn't use less than 300 watts, although there's no question it can be done with less.

 

[JimmyM]

eden 300t is very much an amp of the people. it's made in china by a company called smarvo, and different versions of it exist around the world under the names fame and smarvo, albeit with a tweaked preamp. however, eden had them redesign the entire amp because they were getting sick of getting their balls busted about it being a smarvo.

 

[pedro]

Also... What would you all consider as a minimum wattage for a tube head for playing mid-size venues w/o PA support? My tube experience is still small... but i would think 200watts would be a decent minimum... i would think less wouldn't move enough air. I could be totally wrong though...

I've played a couple of gigs with just my Ampeg V4b and a 1x15. I reckon it depends on your bandmates and your expectations.

 

[Din Of Win]

FWIW, I bought the Peavy Vb and it died on me within a day. Took it back and got another one and it also died within one day.

I've had my Orange for a couple of years and have never had any issues with it. YMMV.

That's good to know. Strange Peavey can make super duty solid states (like my Mark VI) that last for. ev.er. But your tube head fizzled TWICE!


It seems 'famous' bands that use the AD200b have, like, NO problems. But seriously, 3 different people i know that use them have had MAJOR problems. Either it's just a weird coincidence... or Orange amps are wired to commit some sort of punk-induced seppuku

 

[pedro]

That's good to know. Strange Peavey can make super duty solid states (like my Mark VI) that last for. ev.er. But your tube head fizzled TWICE!


It seems 'famous' bands that use the AD200b have, like, NO problems. But seriously, 3 different people i know that use them have had MAJOR problems. Either it's just a weird coincidence... or Orange amps are wired to commit some sort of punk-induced seppuku

I think Peavy had some problems with the Vb when they first came out. Its my understanding that these issues have been dealt with since. I think I just was unlucky.

 

[B-string]

No disrespect intended, but his completely and totally misses the point of what people like in tube amps. It's all about the tube power stage- that's why those tubes are so much bigger than the little 12ax7s in the pre. A hybrid amp is really a compromise, it just doesn't do what a great tube amp does.

Here's my advice: I have gigged for 10 years with all tube bass gear (specifically, a Trace Elliot V6) and it has never, ever failed on stage. I've had it re-tubed once and it was expensive, but I'm willing to shell out a little for tone. It's heavy, but I'm willing to grunt a little to get the sound I want.

There are tons of old Ampegs, Hiwatts and Sunns floating around that are still running after 40 years because they were made well. They weren't pieces of plastic with circuit boards slapped together in China. So my advice would to consider that: don't necessarily opt for a more recent amp because chances are it was manufactured to today's standards, which are pretty shoddy.

No disrespect either but I'll put my 28 years of giging tube amps up against your 10. It is true most Hybrids are just not done well, but some are. To just try one or two poor examples is not the way to form a reasonable opinion. Going on 42 years playing myself.

 

[Din Of Win]

I've played a couple of gigs with just my Ampeg V4b and a 1x15. I reckon it depends on your bandmates and your expectations.

Loud/noisy punky shoegazey band, and me playing through 3x15s or 2x15+6x10.

Good to know JimmyM, thanks, i'll look into it! Out of curiosity... why does/can Eden market the same design? Is it a distribution thing?

@Rickett : Sweet... that will definetly help! FWIW though, at one practice space, i play my 400rb through an 8x10 and it's pretty effing sweet and keeps up with a sunn 2000s fullstack playing guitarist.

 

[JimmyM]

you know, 40-50 years ago, people were complaining about shoddy build quality as well. like going from ptp wiring to turret boards. and yet a lot of this shoddy stuff is still around, too.

 

[pedro]

Loud/noisy punky shoegazey band, and me playing through 3x15s or 2x15+6x10.

Good to know JimmyM, thanks, i'll look into it! Out of curiosity... why does/can Eden market the same design? Is it a distribution thing?

@Rickett : Sweet... that will definetly help! FWIW though, at one practice space, i play my 400rb through an 8x10 and it's pretty effing sweet and keeps up with a sunn 2000s fullstack playing guitarist.

I think you need more volume than I do.

 

[Din Of Win]

I think you need more volume than I do.

LOL... that's just my extreme case...

I do a motown cover thing too through a single 1x15 and my Kustom200

 

[pedro]

LOL... that's just my extreme case...

I do a motown cover thing too through a single 1x15 and my Kustom200

For the Motown the 1x15 and the Ampeg V4b works very nicely, IME.

 

[megadan]

Hybrid's are a scam. They have nothing to do with tube heads. The sound of a tube head comes from the POWER TUBES and the TRANSFORMER. A hybrid has neither of these things. A single 12ax7 in the preamp is not going to give you any kind of tube tone automatically (my old SWR 350 had a "tube preamp" and it was flat and sterile. My GK 800rb has no tubes and it can growl like a monster).

Either get an all tube head, or stick with GK, a hybrid is not the answer in this case.

 

[coreyfyfe]

As far as wattage, I routinely gigged my V4 with a 4x10 or an 8x10 and had plenty of volume. Now that I have my SVT it will just be the SVT/8x10 for loud gigs. Maybe the B15 for softer gigs.

I'm with you on the orange, never really got into those. I know of people who have had issues with cabs with those heads - ie they plug into someone else's cab and trip a fuse because they didn't hook it up to the proper impedance rating. Easy mistake, but more an issue of not knowing your gear, not necessarily bad quality.

As for the Mesa 400+, I'm not a big fan of those, they're fine, but not the one for me. But, the original 400 is supposed to be the same/similar with 6 tubes instead of 12, and the option to run 6L6s for lower power or 6550s for more power. There is one for sale at a local guitar center (or at least it was there last week) for $550. I seriously debated picking it up.

If you're digging the VR, last I checked (last week) musiciansfriend had one or two that were "next-to-new" models, maybe returns or something, for $1300. They only come with the 30 day warranty from MF and no manufacturer's warranty but it's like buying used I suppose?

 

[B-string]

Hybrid's are a scam. They have nothing to do with tube heads. The sound of a tube head comes from the POWER TUBES and the TRANSFORMER. A hybrid has neither of these things. A single 12ax7 in the preamp is not going to give you any kind of tube tone automatically (my old SWR 350 had a "tube preamp" and it was flat and sterile. My GK 800rb has no tubes and it can growl like a monster).

Either get an all tube head, or stick with GK, a hybrid is not the answer in this case.

So I have to ask if you have played the G-K Fusion 550? Three tubes, full plate voltage, six stage preamp?
The Fusion ain't no scam!

 

[megadan]

So I have to ask if you have played the G-K Fusion 550? Three tubes, full plate voltage, six stage preamp?
The Fusion ain't no scam!

I do want to play that amp! I respect the GK power section, so if anyone can make it work it's them. It's definetly on my list but since I found an 800rb my amp GAS has been pretty calm.