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Thinking about making the jump to Tubes... input needed!

#102
different amps, especially tube heads, have different input impedances. This is often more of an issue when using certain old effect pedals. Electro Harmonix stuff from the 80's and 70's will freaking collapse on itself if given too low of a load. I have also had some DI boxes that didnt like certain amps inputs. And vice versa.
BTW I recently played an Ampeg B25 at 30th st Guitars in NYC. Awesome amp! Super basic controls, but that one sound is really nice!
ABout the mesa 400+ non plus. They put out very similar watts, about 250 about 325. Either amp is loud enough to cause hearing damage. The bass 400 chews thru tubes faster and at a higher voltage. The 400+ is lower volts, more tubes (and can only do 6L6 tubes). As far as roadability, they are road warriors.
I love ampegs but would tour on a mesa before I would an Ampeg.
You should be able to find a 400/+ under a G used.
 
#104
Din Of Win said:
Also... What would you all consider as a minimum wattage for a tube head for playing mid-size venues w/o PA support? My tube experience is still small... but i would think 200watts would be a decent minimum... i would think less wouldn't move enough air. I could be totally wrong though...
Click to expand...

A Bass 400 or 400+ is more then enough amp for a large venue (given you are using a big enough cab obviously). I have never had to turn my amp up past 3/4 (pre/master) using a sealed GK backline 4x10. Even then it was usually to loud.

As for destructability...I had the same worries until I started moving my 400+ around. The faceplate is like quarter inch steel...insanely beefy. The tubes shouldn't have to be changed much, though the amp will get some interesting tonal changes depending on what pre and power tubes are used (I have JJs in the power section, and they are supposedly the "smoothest", my pre's are all Mesa branded tubes). The preamp gives you some interesting options; changing out one of the 12ax7s (don't remember which one) increases clean headroom at the cost of gain - something that I really don't need, as it gets painfully loud without distorting in my experience. The cost of retubing I think is around $240, though really you shouldn't need to, especially if you mod the amp to have variable bias, which there is a thread somewhere around here with directions.

As someone pointed out, the differences between the two inputs are negligible at bedroom volumes, but become very apparent at gig volumes (and make for some sweet options!).

I also got mine for $895 about a year ago. You can still see them popping up for that price on a fairly regular basis.

Hope this helps!

-Loren
 
#105
I've been playing gigs since 1966 and have owned and played these TUBE amps:

Fender Showman
Sound City 150
Ampeg SVT
Sunn Model T
Mesa Boogie D-180
Ampeg B15N
Sunn 300T
Marshall EL34 100/100
Eden VT300
Sadowsky SA200

NEVER, can I repeat, NEVER had a breakdown or tube failure except the one time that my Fender Showman fell off the top of its cabinet in the middle of a set. Also never changed a tube! (The next owner may have;-)

I DID spend some time with solid state, owning a VOX Westminster (1967), an Acoustic 360 (1970) and a Warwick Jonas Hellborg system (currently). I have also used various solid state power amps (Phase Linear, Crown and Carver) with an Alembic F2-B preamp, which I guess would be a kind of hybrid. As good as the Alembic tube preamp with a 12 pound, 1200 watt solid state power amp could sound, it never measured up to an all tube amp.

I'm REALLY happy with my 200 watt all-tube Sadowsky SA200 amp through one JBL K145. After 42 years of playing, I have no problems telling the drummer or guitar player to TURN IT DOWN!

Gale
 
#107
BassmanPaul said:
Please don't make the mistake of lecturing me about tube amps. I've been building them since I was in my teens. Until the late seventies I used only tube amps. the later ones were my designs. I simply consider a SS output stage a more logical and elegant thing but I do like to have a tube in the chain somewhere.

I also made no comment about reliability. A well designed tube output stage should be as reliable as a well designed SS one. the problems start when you try to get every last watt out of a set of tubes. Running anything at its limits will lead to problems sooner or later. I personally prefer to get 300W via an octet of KT88s. They last longer that way.

if toting a tube amp fullfils your needs more power to you. For me it's a case of been there, done that and no thanks, not anymore.

Paul
Click to expand...

300w from an octet? Are you really under running them? Personally i like to have the plates high and the grids low and keep them cool, they'll easily last decades in a set up like that.
 
#109
lorenk said:
A Bass 400 or 400+ is more then enough amp for a large venue (given you are using a big enough cab obviously). I have never had to turn my amp up past 3/4 (pre/master) using a sealed GK backline 4x10. Even then it was usually to loud.

As for destructability...I had the same worries until I started moving my 400+ around. The faceplate is like quarter inch steel...insanely beefy. The tubes shouldn't have to be changed much, though the amp will get some interesting tonal changes depending on what pre and power tubes are used (I have JJs in the power section, and they are supposedly the "smoothest", my pre's are all Mesa branded tubes). The preamp gives you some interesting options; changing out one of the 12ax7s (don't remember which one) increases clean headroom at the cost of gain - something that I really don't need, as it gets painfully loud without distorting in my experience. The cost of retubing I think is around $240, though really you shouldn't need to, especially if you mod the amp to have variable bias, which there is a thread somewhere around here with directions.

As someone pointed out, the differences between the two inputs are negligible at bedroom volumes, but become very apparent at gig volumes (and make for some sweet options!).

I also got mine for $895 about a year ago. You can still see them popping up for that price on a fairly regular basis.

Hope this helps!

-Loren
Click to expand...

This is REALLY good to know. The more i thuoght about it, the 400+ and SVT VR were pretty neck-and-neck. Knowing the durrability of the 400+ is a big help in decision making! I do want to find a 400 to check out. Also, i did some more checking of the YBA-200... i'm liking it more and more!!! (it's also heartening to hear people finding these things in the sub-$1k ranges!!)

@JimmyM: Out of curiosity, do you run a LOT of pedals? Like over 10ish? I generally have at least a dozen on my board at one time... I seriously can't explain WHY there would be a tonal difference. I kept the bass and cabs the same, but different amps sounded differently when pushing my pedals. Like not to the point they sounded terrible w/certain heads... just... different.
 
#110
Din Of Win said:
@JimmyM: Out of curiosity, do you run a LOT of pedals? Like over 10ish? I generally have at least a dozen on my board at one time... I seriously can't explain WHY there would be a tonal difference. I kept the bass and cabs the same, but different amps sounded differently when pushing my pedals. Like not to the point they sounded terrible w/certain heads... just... different.
Click to expand...
i think the most i ran in this most recent bout of effects love is 7. currently running 3. i could see where the more pedals you run, the more exaggerated the effect is, though. that might be why.

also, i thought calaveras had a pretty good explanation about different impedances affecting them. not something i ever paid much attention to, quite honestly. if an effect didn't sound so good in a given amp, i would just adjust it a little till it did.

could be a combo of using similarly voiced amps and not having such a refined ear anymore ;)
 
#112
Din Of Win said:
@JimmyM: Out of curiosity, do you run a LOT of pedals? Like over 10ish? I generally have at least a dozen on my board at one time... I seriously can't explain WHY there would be a tonal difference. I kept the bass and cabs the same, but different amps sounded differently when pushing my pedals. Like not to the point they sounded terrible w/certain heads... just... different.
Click to expand...

I'm not Jimmy, but I have used my pedal board with all of my vintage ampegs (V4, SVT, and two B15s) without much issue. The biggest problem I had adjusting between them tonally was for different cabs. My 4x10 responds very differently than my 8x10 with the same head. Actually the biggest adjustment I had to make was for using my pedals with my B15s in the studio, since I had all the settings on my pedals adjusted for multiple 10s and the V4's eq, not a single 15 and bass/treble controls on the B15.
 
#113
Din Of Win said:
That, or your gear is just that much better than mine and can handle pedals w/o wigging out, haha. ;)
Click to expand...

I've mainly seen Jimmy post about the VT bass pedal and the British character pedal (both from sansamp).

I make occasional use of pedals, though, mostly the electro-harmonix Big Muff, morley bass wah and a digitech reverb pedal.

I actually think they sound better with my tube amp than they did with my SS amp. The sound is a lot less harsh and more "natural" now.
 
#116
Din Of Win said:
This is REALLY good to know. The more i thuoght about it, the 400+ and SVT VR were pretty neck-and-neck. Knowing the durrability of the 400+ is a big help in decision making!
@JimmyM: Out of curiosity, do you run a LOT of pedals? Like over 10ish? I generally have at least a dozen on my board at one time... I seriously can't explain WHY there would be a tonal difference. I kept the bass and cabs the same, but different amps sounded differently when pushing my pedals. Like not to the point they sounded terrible w/certain heads... just... different.
Click to expand...
My mesa 400 has face planted about half a dozen times. The last time broke its rack case, dislodged and broke a jj pre tube (great pre tubes for the 400!) And broke my right thumb trying to stop it. Imagine a slow motion noooooo! As I dived across the room. Always kept on ticking like a bomb. About effects being affected by amps. I have really only experienced it with older ehx, ross and mutron boxes. I mostly have more problems mixing different brands (moog,dod,ehx) than any amp probs though. Ehx boxes seem to hate dod boxes in front of them. My theory is that the ehx tone is the tone of low/no headroom. Dod boxes seem to have loads of headroom in comparison, I think they drive the daylights out of the ehx's and then impedances issues eat your lows/highs. Modern ehx are better.
 
#117
"Seriously though, you can't call the VOX Westminster a bass amp!"

I'd say the same, Paul. After seeing The Animals in concert and Chas Chandler was using one, I had to have it. In fact, I bought the same one he was using in the concert I saw. It wasn't until I took it home and started playing it that I realized it was nothing like the British Vox amps. A valuable lesson for a 16-year-old.

Gale

amp_westminster.gif
 
#120
I used only tubes since 1978 up until I had a bad experience with 3 SVT-VR's that were very early Vietnam produced. I tried for about that last 2 years to get into something other than all tube, but it didn't work for me man. I'm back to an all tube Ampeg and there just ain't nothing else like it to my ears.
 

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