Thinking of BEAD, lose the G?

[SteveC]

I (pretty much) play 5ers exclusively and am happy with my Stambaughs.

However, knowing what I know now, if I had to do over I'd probably go with a 4 string tuned DGCF, plus a hipshot tuned to C.

The downsides would be losing that open E which comes in handy for a lot of tunes and styles, and having to relearn the fretboard.

Yes, I could just transpose everything but I know the sound of my notes (especially open strings) too well for it not to freak me out if I played an "E" but the actual note I heard was a D. I'm just weird that way, plus it's way too late now lol.

For any "custom" tuning I would have to spend a lot of time unlearning decades of muscle memory. Not worth it to me at this point in my life/career.

What I DID do was tune one of my basses (low to high) CGDA, similar to New Standard Tuning, as used by Robert Fripp (of King Crimson fame).

It allowed me to have a similar feel to a 4 string, but with an extended range that the dropped two steps on the lower and up one step on the upper string provided. Since this tuning is in 5ths, it made it easier for me to play typical "guitar" power chords or add in those "extra notes" that you generally have to "reach for" on a standard (or BEAD) tuned 4 string. It was also quite a nice treat to use this tuning for independent left/right hand bass/chordal melody interplay (ala Chapman Stick or Warr Guitar styles).

It worked for me. Didn't miss that low B (C worked out quite well).

I may revisit this adventure at some point in the future.

Cello tuning. This is the only one that really seems worth relearning to me. I don't really use the low B but I like to use C and D. I always screw up when I play cello so maybe this would help both bass and cello playing. Maybe someday when I have more time to retrain myself...like retirement.

 

[bound'n'blocked]

But he pretty quickly went to 6-strings, adding back the G and a high C to boot

This thread just goes to show that people have different gigs. I can cover some shows with a standard 4-string, and while I have a D-tuner I only use it occasionally. I can play the same show on a 5-string and will use the B-string but rarely for notes below E, instead using it up the neck so I'm not shifting positions. Another gig I played 6-string the first 7 shows, for the last show I brought a 5 and ended up missing the high C. On a different gig, I wouldn't even think about the high C.

Just depends on what notes you think you need, and how you want to make them. There are good arguments for a 6 in that you can play a wider range without moving your left hand. There are good arguments for a 4 in that you don't have to worry about damping extra strings and the "less is more" can kick in to induce you to play less notes.

No single right answer...

I'll agree with this. I failed to mention in my other post about something like this. My last gig, I play a four the entire night. Up to that point, I had play only five strings. I really cant remember playing a four string for more than a song and a half (I changed during a break in the song, I was so confused). I had a four with me, but started out on the four, since it was the first gig I had played since getting it and wanted to try it out. It sounded so nice, I just never went to the five. I did miss the B string a few times, but was able to get by without it ok.

BnB

 

[Selios]

I'll agree with the idea that you should make your decision based on your gigs and their needs, but at the same time I've been doing the BEAD thing on 2 of my basses for at least a couple years now, and that's pretty much how I play bass now. For me and my needs, it works brilliantly. I have since bought a real 5 string that I tinker with, but I personally prefer the BEAD 4's actually. I don't particularly miss the G string; the only thing I can do with the full 5 that I can't on the BEADs are hit chords involving the notes exclusively found on the G. Otherwise, the majority of those notes can be hit on the high D, and you get the benefit of playing "across" the neck starting from down low as you would on a 5-string.

I don't really feel that missing the G is a limitation for me and my gigs.

 

[micguy]

Also, it's absolutely 100% wrong that amps/PAs can't do the B and E string properly. [

Sorry - apparently a degree in Acoustical Physics and several decades of designing pro audio gear, including loudspeakers, have led me to this misconception. Thanks for setting me straight.

I'll have all the test equipment and simulation software that's provided data to support my misconceptions sent in for re-calibration. I also have a bunch iof Engineers that work for me that'll need re-education. Could you help with that?

 

[WardEarth]

Nothing wrong with going BEAD. So long as your bass's nut will hold the B string. If it wont hold the B string, you will likely break the nut if you try to force it.
Overall IMO, the B string is just another string. It is more lower frequency, but it doesn't make it more badass. The E string is pretty damn fat, and the G string can cut through just as cleanly as any other string.

 

[Jay2U]

A player I knew in LA restrung a 4 string Dargie Delight Sterling to BEAD which I thought was a cost effective way to get the benefits of a fiver without buying one. Anyone ever tried this and did you miss the G string?

Yup! I've been playing a BEAD tuned Ibanez for over six years already. It's a great and very playable bass.

 

[InternetAlias]

Sorry - apparently a degree in Acoustical Physics and several decades of designing pro audio gear, including loudspeakers, have led me to this misconception. Thanks for setting me straight.

I'll have all the test equipment and simulation software that's provided data to support my misconceptions sent in for re-calibration. I also have a bunch if Engineers that work for me that'll need re-education. Could you help with that?

We're either talking about completely different topics, or you don't understand my point. I doubt you and engineers that work for you don't know what I am about to say.

Nobody needs to hear the fundamental of such low notes anyways.

And not just that they don't need to, they also couldn't, a lot of the time. Human hearing being limited to 20hz down there is just an average - the normal distribution of "the lowest frequency a person can hear" does center around 20hz, but it goes both lower and higher for a good part of the population.

Speakers don't need to reproduce the first two harmonics of the B note, and harmonics beyond that will still ring true. Even if you put a constant HPF at 70hz on all your bass guitar speakers, the B string would still sound lower than a B an octave above, even though you would be able to hear the first two harmonics of the 2nd B but not the first B. That's how our brains work - they'll make up for the missing fundamental and even several harmonics if needed.

In music production, there'll often be a HPF on bass guitars to clear the low end. There are several differing opinions on this, but a lot of modern metal is produced this way - where all the subs are left to the kick, with the bass taking space above it.

Really, I know this is a bass guitar forum, but a lot of the time, there's just no place for subs anyways, so arguing that amps/PAs have trouble with low notes of bass guitars really means you are using a type of a tone that's doomed to fail. If you're smart about it and use a HPF, then compress/limit the signal, you can make it sound huge without relying on subs... which are probably going to be taken by the kick drum anyways, which produces a sound that is way more consistent and thus easier to control and tame if needed.

So, IMO: Get a fanfret instrument, get pretty decent tension on it, have the pickups put in such a way that they pick up more lows from shorter strings than longer strings (for better overall balance), use a HPF and a limiter/compressor in a good way and you can tune down ridiculously low while still having very audible harmonics and distinguishable notes.

If you want to tell me that an EB0 without a HPF won't do really well at ultra high volumes because low frequency buildup and peaks cause the speakers to suffer... Well, that's really not what I am talking about. I am talking about modern tone, on modern basses, through modern AMPs/PAs, with modern knowledge.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

One of the challenges of a bass that goes down to low B is getting that to the audience. Bass amps don't go that low (most don't really do a low E very well), and PA's may or may not make it down there. Some of the places I play, i won't bring the D standard bass, as the PA doesn't really work. A low B would be silly in those places.

I have to say that is completely opposite to my experience unless you are talking about a cheap bass amp and/or a small vocal pa (like the little Fender compact thing a singer I play with uses for rehearsals).

My Ampeg and Markbass rigs are both fine down to 30Hz, and so is every professional full PA I've encountered. This weekend I used an Eden rig at a festival and that had no problems with low B, which is used all the way through one of our numbers.

[Edit] I should probably mention my background in acoustics and that I am talking about reproducing the fundamental/first harmonic.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Speakers don't need to reproduce the first two harmonics of the B note

That does not agree with either my experience or my knowledge of psychoacoustics.

 

[InternetAlias]

That does not agree with either my experience or my knowledge of psychoacoustics.

If we're talking about psychoacoustics - your brain will truly hear the lower note as lower even if it has no fundamental in the signal/sound. Our brains reproduce the lower frequencies we don't hear, because if you're hearing a note with the fundamental frequency of 20, you are also hearing 40/60/80/100/120/140hz etc. There's literally only one note that fits this harmonic blueprint (without having frequencies between, such as 50/70/90hz etc), and that's the note at 20hz. So your brain will be aware that sounds deep. Even when it doesn't. However, if your bass is CUTTING THROUGH in the lows, as would be the case if you're playing acoustics, then you obviously have very different needs from me, who plays metal and has not only an overabundance of low and high mids, but also a stable 80-120hz tone.

But still, my opinions are mainly based in modern, amplified, mid present bass guitar tone, where you can get away without having a lot of low end. If you play music where the bass absolutely needs those subs, my opinion is invalid as far as it goes. If you play music where bass cuts through higher harmonics, things change dramatically, and the lower you can tune and give the impression of depth without getting more low end from the amp/PA.

 

[micguy]

Nobody needs to hear the fundamental of such low notes anyways.

On this we'll have to disagree. The human ear can certainly hear 31 Hz, and your body can definitely feel it when it's reproduced.

If you go looking at speaker specs, you'll find Ampeg 810's have a f10 (meaning they produce a tenth of the acoustical power at that frequency than they do at higher frequencies of 40 Hz). The f3 (what audio pros use as the low frequency limit when discussing such things - its the point at which the speaker is producing half of the power it does further up) is 58 Hz - well above a low E. A more modern example of a well made bass guitar cabinet would be a Subway 115 - f3 of 56.6 Hz, and f10 of 38 Hz. Neither of these will reproduce the Low E on a bass guitar accurately, and neither is anywhere close to accurately reproducing a low B (31 Hz). So, bass guitar cabinets are not designed to reproduce the fundamentals of our instrument - size and weight concerns get in the way of that. But, does it make a difference?

If you'd ever played through a PA that will reproduce a low E, D (my lowest tuned bass), or a low B, you simply wouldn't argue. Many folks don't get that chance, but I (lucky me) do on a regular basis. I've also mixed a lot of shows on such systems - Although the FOH guy may choose to present less low end in certain contexts, the impact of a full range PA with enough Killowatts behind it is a VERY useful musical tool. If nobody needed to hear fundamentals, nobody would ever use subs. The fact that they do means they're useful. You may have heard subs misapplied in a small room or something, but the fact is that larger PA systems use a lot of them for very good reasons. And it's not just the kick - the kick is tuned higher than your lowest notes in most situations.

High pass filters are useful for a couple of things:

1) There is sub audible stuff when you pull on a note, before you release it, that is not musical, and wastes power, or can destroy woofers if not dealt with. Even a PA with great subs shouldn't be called on to pass 10 Hz

2) When all you're playing through is a bass amp (which we've demonstrated can't reproduce the lowest notes on a bass), then protecting the woofers is a good idea.

That said, putting a high pass filter in the part of your signal path that's feeding a good PA that attenuates the lowest notes on your bass is something you don't need to do - if FOH needs to limit things, he has that knob, and it's difficult to undo.

 

[Ric5]

I love my low B and I love my G string

 

[InternetAlias]

On this we'll have to disagree. The human ear can certainly hear 31 Hz, and your body can definitely feel it when it's reproduced.

If you go looking at speaker specs, you'll find Ampeg 810's have a f10 (meaning they produce a tenth of the acoustical power at that frequency than they do at higher frequencies of 40 Hz). The f3 (what audio pros use as the low frequency limit when discussing such things - its the point at which the speaker is producing half of the power it does further up) is 58 Hz - well above a low E. A more modern example of a well made bass guitar cabinet would be a Subway 115 - f3 of 56.6 Hz, and f10 of 38 Hz. Neither of these will reproduce the Low E on a bass guitar accurately, and neither is anywhere close to accurately reproducing a low B (31 Hz). So, bass guitar cabinets are not designed to reproduce the fundamentals of our instrument - size and weight concerns get in the way of that. But, does it make a difference?

If you'd ever played through a PA that will reproduce a low E, D (my lowest tuned bass), or a low B, you simply wouldn't argue. Many folks don't get that chance, but I (lucky me) do on a regular basis. I've also mixed a lot of shows on such systems - Although the FOH guy may choose to present less low end in certain contexts, the impact of a full range PA with enough Killowatts behind it is a VERY useful musical tool. If nobody needed to hear fundamentals, nobody would ever use subs. The fact that they do means they're useful. You may have heard subs misapplied in a small room or something, but the fact is that larger PA systems use a lot of them for very good reasons. And it's not just the kick - the kick is tuned higher than your lowest notes in most situations.

High pass filters are useful for a couple of things:

1) There is sub audible stuff when you pull on a note, before you release it, that is not musical, and wastes power, or can destroy woofers if not dealt with. Even a PA with great subs shouldn't be called on to pass 10 Hz

2) When all you're playing through is a bass amp (which we've demonstrated can't reproduce the lowest notes on a bass), then protecting the woofers is a good idea.

That said, putting a high pass filter in the part of your signal path that's feeding a good PA that attenuates the lowest notes on your bass is something you don't need to do - if FOH needs to limit things, he has that knob, and it's difficult to undo.

I guess my opinions and knowledge of the subject are based way too much on fixing problems that shouldn't exist and living in a metal context where clangy bass with less low end is sometimes desirable, rather than necessarily a compromise.

That being said, I also don't like live music with strong subs, it makes my internal organs feel weird and I struggle to enjoy it. That could be another thing coloring my perception, if by "nobody needs to hear those frequencies" I really meant "I don't need to hear those frequencies, because they make me feel nauseous".

 

[Stackpole]

Anyone ever notice any negative effects on structure of bass? Just wondering.

 

[InternetAlias]

Anyone ever notice any negative effects on structure of bass? Just wondering.

As long as you keep the tension similar, there will be no issues, that's the only structual problem you could be causing. The other potential one is if you don't switch to a new nut. When converting my 4s to BEAD, I always cut a new nut, so I can easily return to my 40-100 sets later if I want EADG again.

 

[micguy]

That being said, I also don't like live music with strong subs, it makes my internal organs feel weird and I struggle to enjoy it. That could be another thing coloring my perception, if by "nobody needs to hear those frequencies" I really meant "I don't need to hear those frequencies, because they make me feel nauseous".

Either you hang out in places where the subs are used inappropriately, or you just don't like lots of Low Frequencies - nothing to argue about there.

I will note, though, that if you completely eliminate the the fundamental of the notes in your lowest octave (everything below 82 Hz), there'a absolutely no reason to play bass - a guitar can do that just fine.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

If we're talking about psychoacoustics - your brain will truly hear the lower note as lower even if it has no fundamental in the signal/sound. Our brains reproduce the lower frequencies we don't hear, because if you're hearing a note with the fundamental frequency of 20, you are also hearing 40/60/80/100/120/140hz etc. There's literally only one note that fits this harmonic blueprint (without having frequencies between, such as 50/70/90hz etc), and that's the note at 20hz. So your brain will be aware that sounds deep. Even when it doesn't. However, if your bass is CUTTING THROUGH in the lows, as would be the case if you're playing acoustics, then you obviously have very different needs from me, who plays metal and has not only an overabundance of low and high mids, but also a stable 80-120hz tone.

But still, my opinions are mainly based in modern, amplified, mid present bass guitar tone, where you can get away without having a lot of low end. If you play music where the bass absolutely needs those subs, my opinion is invalid as far as it goes. If you play music where bass cuts through higher harmonics, things change dramatically, and the lower you can tune and give the impression of depth without getting more low end from the amp/PA.

Actually the context I'm thinking mostly is of the neo-prog band I play with which isn't that different sound-wise from metal (maybe) - bass is competing with two overdriven guitars plus keyboards, with those instruments filling up most of the frequency range where my upper harmonics would be so it really is the low end that needs to be in place.

Psychoacoustics is such an interesting subject though... I have read the Roederer book of course, just got the book by Alexandra Hui to read.

 

[5StringBlues]

Ain't nothin' but a G strang baybay...................

 

[Stackpole]

As long as you keep the tension similar, there will be no issues, that's the only structual problem you could be causing. The other potential one is if you don't switch to a new nut. When converting my 4s to BEAD, I always cut a new nut, so I can easily return to my 40-100 sets later if I want EADG again.

I would've thought that as EAD tension remained the same and then adding way more with B(while understanding G eliminated) might be more than necks were designed for. Especially necks tuned to EADG for years. Like I said, no experience with this so just curious.

 

[InternetAlias]

I will note, though, that if you completely eliminate the the fundamental of the notes in your lowest octave (everything below 82 Hz), there'a absolutely no reason to play bass - a guitar can do that just fine.

I use my HPF at about 50hz but most of the meat of my bass tone is really in the 80-200hz range. That being said, I gotta disagree with this - a guitar REALLY couldn't do that. It's not all about frequencies, it's also about the saturation of the frequency range.

The lowest note on a guitar being 80hz will produce 80, 160, 240, 320hz, etc harmonics. The lowest note on a bass will produce 40, 80, 120, 160, 200, 240, 280, 320hz, etc.

Even if the amplitudes at unbolded frequencies were equal, the bolded frequencies would cause the sound to sound way fuller, darker and deeper, even without the actual low end.