Thunderbird Club

[GBassNorth]

It was actually loose.
So I just slightly tightened it.
Then it lifted.

I just hope it’s an easy fix.

Truth of the matter - the Epiphone and to a lesser degree the Gibson body inserts for the three point bridge are a weak link in the three point design. Unfortunately both Hipshot and Babicz utilize that weak link to fasten their bridges.

In both cases, the body insert splines are designed to hold the insert relatively stable from a rotation standpoint, but not from a vertical lift standpoint. To make matters worse, the Hipshot bridge is designed to fit over an Epiphone raised collar insert or a Gibson flush insert, so it actually has an air gap between the top of the insert and the bottom of the bridge. That air gap allows the user to tighten the bridge down to the body but also risks pulling the insert out of the body if over tightened. And therein lies the problem, there is no specification as to how tight the bridge screws should be, and honestly it would be impossible to write a torque spec for this application. Wood density and moisture levels are complete variables and control how much friction force would be required to pull an insert out of position.

Solutions - IIRC both Hipshot and Babicz offer a crush ring type spacer to fit in the base of the bridge and eliminate the air gap over the insert. This is about a 90% effective solution (pre insert failure). If your insert has already failed you’ll first need to recreate the fastening friction needed to hold it in place. That can be done with tight bond glue in minor cases, or in more severe cases you may need to add wood (toothpicks work ok) back into the hole along with some tight bond glue to regain a good friction seat. In both cases, wait twice as long as the glue requires to become fully set before tightening the screw into the insert. If neither of those options work, you can go full Fender and drill 4 countersunk screw holes into the bridge plate and then use Fender flush mount bridge screws to fasten the bridge to the body. That’s the route I ended up having to take on mine because the first two methods failed within weeks after the repair. Here’s how it looks…

For the record, I’ve had two Epiphone insert failures and zero Gibson insert failures. The Gibby insert splines are slightly different than the Epiphone ones so they may have a bit more grip.

 

[GBassNorth]

Does any you know of a good source, preferrably within/or with low shipping costs to Europe, for a(n affordable) replacement pickguard for an Epiphone Thunderbird Vintage Pro? The standard one in white does rub the eyes a bit.

Asking for a friend, of course.

Contact @Engle
Best in the business for Tbird needs.

 

[GBassNorth]

Depending on the year of the pickups, the older 70’s are the ones with the most magic I’m told, they would be worth getting it.

I have a 1977 and a 1990. Both are worth their weight in gold as far as the pickups go. The rest of the bass is kinda in the Eppi quality camp.

 

[Chucky Stiletti]

Truth of the matter - the Epiphone and to a lesser degree the Gibson body inserts for the three point bridge are a weak link in the three point design. Unfortunately both Hipshot and Babicz utilize that weak link to fasten their bridges.

In both cases, the body insert splines are designed to hold the insert relatively stable from a rotation standpoint, but not from a vertical lift standpoint. To make matters worse, the Hipshot bridge is designed to fit over an Epiphone raised collar insert or a Gibson flush insert, so it actually has an air gap between the top of the insert and the bottom of the bridge. That air gap allows the user to tighten the bridge down to the body but also risks pulling the insert out of the body if over tightened. And therein lies the problem, there is no specification as to how tight the bridge screws should be, and honestly it would be impossible to write a torque spec for this application. Wood density and moisture levels are complete variables and control how much friction force would be required to pull an insert out of position.

Solutions - IIRC both Hipshot and Babicz offer a crush ring type spacer to fit in the base of the bridge and eliminate the air gap over the insert. This is about a 90% effective solution (pre insert failure). If your insert has already failed you’ll first need to recreate the fastening friction needed to hold it in place. That can be done with tight bond glue in minor cases, or in more severe cases you may need to add wood (toothpicks work ok) back into the hole along with some tight bond glue to regain a good friction seat. In both cases, wait twice as long as the glue requires to become fully set before tightening the screw into the insert. If neither of those options work, you can go full Fender and drill 4 countersunk screw holes into the bridge plate and then use Fender flush mount bridge screws to fasten the bridge to the body. That’s the route I ended up having to take on mine because the first two methods failed within weeks after the repair. Here’s how it looks…
View attachment 5195720

For the record, I’ve had two Epiphone insert failures and zero Gibson insert failures. The Gibby insert splines are slightly different than the Epiphone ones so they may have a bit more grip.

don’t wanna open (again) the can of worms on this one but calling them “weak link” on the design of the three point is unfair since the inserts were originally designed to sustain the downward force of the string tension, no more, no less. Understand that it can be lucrative catering to folks who should not be messing around with three point bridges in the first place but if you are going to do this the only elegant solution (imho) is two separate P/Ns from HS, one for Gibson, one for Eppi reflecting the baseplate clearance or lack thereoff....

 

[Stealth57]

That would be absolutely perfect for the basement music room I’m slowly getting together at the mountain place. What did you end up spending for the materials? Baltic birch looks to be well worth the expense.

4x8x18mm Baltic Birch was $200
Casters $20
Deft $40

I already had the screws and Titebond III.

P.S. I updated the plans but it is available at the same link I previously posted.

 

[JJR58]

Truth of the matter - the Epiphone and to a lesser degree the Gibson body inserts for the three point bridge are a weak link in the three point design. Unfortunately both Hipshot and Babicz utilize that weak link to fasten their bridges.

In both cases, the body insert splines are designed to hold the insert relatively stable from a rotation standpoint, but not from a vertical lift standpoint. To make matters worse, the Hipshot bridge is designed to fit over an Epiphone raised collar insert or a Gibson flush insert, so it actually has an air gap between the top of the insert and the bottom of the bridge. That air gap allows the user to tighten the bridge down to the body but also risks pulling the insert out of the body if over tightened. And therein lies the problem, there is no specification as to how tight the bridge screws should be, and honestly it would be impossible to write a torque spec for this application. Wood density and moisture levels are complete variables and control how much friction force would be required to pull an insert out of position.

Solutions - IIRC both Hipshot and Babicz offer a crush ring type spacer to fit in the base of the bridge and eliminate the air gap over the insert. This is about a 90% effective solution (pre insert failure). If your insert has already failed you’ll first need to recreate the fastening friction needed to hold it in place. That can be done with tight bond glue in minor cases, or in more severe cases you may need to add wood (toothpicks work ok) back into the hole along with some tight bond glue to regain a good friction seat. In both cases, wait twice as long as the glue requires to become fully set before tightening the screw into the insert. If neither of those options work, you can go full Fender and drill 4 countersunk screw holes into the bridge plate and then use Fender flush mount bridge screws to fasten the bridge to the body. That’s the route I ended up having to take on mine because the first two methods failed within weeks after the repair. Here’s how it looks…
View attachment 5195720

For the record, I’ve had two Epiphone insert failures and zero Gibson insert failures. The Gibby insert splines are slightly different than the Epiphone ones so they may have a bit more grip.

Thanks George!!
Extremely informative.
And when it goes to the shop for modding, I’m just going to have my tech do the Fender type mount.
At least that’ll be full proof.
I’d love to go 2 piece.
But I think the only thing that’s available, but doesn’t fit according to specs.
Is the one Philadelphia Luthier Supply sells for a Gibson.
But no biggy, I like the screw option.

 

[JJR58]

don’t wanna open (again) the can of worms on this one but calling them “weak link” on the design of the three point is unfair since the inserts were originally designed to sustain the downward force of the string tension, no more, no less. Understand that it can be lucrative catering to folks who should not be messing around with three point bridges in the first place but if you are going to do this the only elegant solution (imho) is two separate P/Ns from HS, one for Gibson, one for Eppi reflecting the baseplate clearance or lack thereoff....

And also very informative.

 

[GBassNorth]

don’t wanna open (again) the can of worms on this one but calling them “weak link” on the design of the three point is unfair since the inserts were originally designed to sustain the downward force of the string tension, no more, no less. Understand that it can be lucrative catering to folks who should not be messing around with three point bridges in the first place but if you are going to do this the only elegant solution (imho) is two separate P/Ns from HS, one for Gibson, one for Eppi reflecting the baseplate clearance or lack thereoff....

Technically, the only instance that the inserts would ONLY see a down force with a three point bridge is if the string ball end was attached to a hard tail or claw or through body stringing. The Gibby and Eppi Tbird three points were never designed or supplied that way (although Greco did add that feature to their offerings). As such the stock three point has mostly a lateral pull force. The inserts that potentially pull out are the rear inserts and that’s because at some point the lateral force has weakened the friction fit of the insert into the body causing the insert to slightly lift out of its hole. I’ve never seen one fully let loose but I suppose it could happen.

The Hipshot and Babicz bridge designs can compound the issue further if you install them without the proper p/n to correct the situation. I think both brands now (not originally) offer a separate Gibby and an Eppi solution that looks like it should be pretty effective.

 

[Chucky Stiletti]

Technically, the only instance that the inserts would ONLY see a down force with a three point bridge is if the string ball end was attached to a hard tail or claw or through body stringing. The Gibby and Eppi Tbird three points were never designed or supplied that way (although Greco did add that feature to their offerings). As such the stock three point has mostly a lateral pull force. The inserts that potentially pull out are the rear inserts and that’s because at some point the lateral force has weakened the friction fit of the insert into the body causing the insert to slightly lift out of its hole. I’ve never seen one fully let loose but I suppose it could happen.

The Hipshot and Babicz bridge designs can compound the issue further if you install them without the proper p/n to correct the situation. I think both brands now (not originally) offer a separate Gibby and an Eppi solution that looks like it should be pretty effective.

ok, call it rotational (2 rear ones) or whatever….they were never intended for an upwards pulling type force…

 

[GBassNorth]

ok, call it rotational (2 rear ones) or whatever….they were never intended for an upwards pulling type force…

Got it, I think we’re saying the same thing. The after market bridges from Hipshot and babicz both impart a dead vertical upward pulling force which is exactly what these inserts were not designed to deal with since they are friction press fit vs threaded type inserts. With the right part number those after market bridge options become less problematic and don’t compound the pull out issue. That said, I have had a three point pull out as well, due to the lateral forces of the strings, hence my original comment about these type of inserts (vs threaded inserts) being a short coming in the original three point design potentially compounded by the vertical lift design of the aftermarket bridges if not properly specd.

 

[cmassa]

Wanted to thank everyone for the kind words. Have been making headway on finding new homes for my flock. Yeah I replaced the 30 year old avatar pic.

“Protect your fret hand Thumb”

 

[MCF]

Ive never had intonation issues.
And I can get stupid low action.
Just tapped down the inserts, bridge is seated property again, we’ll see what happens.

Hope it holds Jeff.

I’ve hung onto it thinking I’ll try again on a different Thunderbird. If I end up parting with it, I’ll let the gang here know in case anyone can use it.

 

[JJR58]

Hope it holds Jeff.

I’ve hung onto it thinking I’ll try again on a different Thunderbird. If I end up parting with it, I’ll let the gang here know in case anyone can use it.

Thanks Marshall, if it doesn’t I’ll simply do George’s suggestion.

 

[JIO]

Truth of the matter - the Epiphone and to a lesser degree the Gibson body inserts for the three point bridge are a weak link in the three point design. Unfortunately both Hipshot and Babicz utilize that weak link to fasten their bridges.

In both cases, the body insert splines are designed to hold the insert relatively stable from a rotation standpoint, but not from a vertical lift standpoint. To make matters worse, the Hipshot bridge is designed to fit over an Epiphone raised collar insert or a Gibson flush insert, so it actually has an air gap between the top of the insert and the bottom of the bridge. That air gap allows the user to tighten the bridge down to the body but also risks pulling the insert out of the body if over tightened. And therein lies the problem, there is no specification as to how tight the bridge screws should be, and honestly it would be impossible to write a torque spec for this application. Wood density and moisture levels are complete variables and control how much friction force would be required to pull an insert out of position.

Solutions - IIRC both Hipshot and Babicz offer a crush ring type spacer to fit in the base of the bridge and eliminate the air gap over the insert. This is about a 90% effective solution (pre insert failure). If your insert has already failed you’ll first need to recreate the fastening friction needed to hold it in place. That can be done with tight bond glue in minor cases, or in more severe cases you may need to add wood (toothpicks work ok) back into the hole along with some tight bond glue to regain a good friction seat. In both cases, wait twice as long as the glue requires to become fully set before tightening the screw into the insert. If neither of those options work, you can go full Fender and drill 4 countersunk screw holes into the bridge plate and then use Fender flush mount bridge screws to fasten the bridge to the body. That’s the route I ended up having to take on mine because the first two methods failed within weeks after the repair. Here’s how it looks…
View attachment 5195720

For the record, I’ve had two Epiphone insert failures and zero Gibson insert failures. The Gibby insert splines are slightly different than the Epiphone ones so they may have a bit more grip.

Hummm.., I've had a Supertone in my Saundersbird for years with no issues. Having it set-up as a string-thru certainly helps draw the bridge into the body, so there's that.

 

[MCF]

Truth of the matter - the Epiphone and to a lesser degree the Gibson body inserts for the three point bridge are a weak link in the three point design. Unfortunately both Hipshot and Babicz utilize that weak link to fasten their bridges.

In both cases, the body insert splines are designed to hold the insert relatively stable from a rotation standpoint, but not from a vertical lift standpoint. To make matters worse, the Hipshot bridge is designed to fit over an Epiphone raised collar insert or a Gibson flush insert, so it actually has an air gap between the top of the insert and the bottom of the bridge. That air gap allows the user to tighten the bridge down to the body but also risks pulling the insert out of the body if over tightened. And therein lies the problem, there is no specification as to how tight the bridge screws should be, and honestly it would be impossible to write a torque spec for this application. Wood density and moisture levels are complete variables and control how much friction force would be required to pull an insert out of position.

Solutions - IIRC both Hipshot and Babicz offer a crush ring type spacer to fit in the base of the bridge and eliminate the air gap over the insert. This is about a 90% effective solution (pre insert failure). If your insert has already failed you’ll first need to recreate the fastening friction needed to hold it in place. That can be done with tight bond glue in minor cases, or in more severe cases you may need to add wood (toothpicks work ok) back into the hole along with some tight bond glue to regain a good friction seat. In both cases, wait twice as long as the glue requires to become fully set before tightening the screw into the insert. If neither of those options work, you can go full Fender and drill 4 countersunk screw holes into the bridge plate and then use Fender flush mount bridge screws to fasten the bridge to the body. That’s the route I ended up having to take on mine because the first two methods failed within weeks after the repair. Here’s how it looks…
View attachment 5195720

For the record, I’ve had two Epiphone insert failures and zero Gibson insert failures. The Gibby insert splines are slightly different than the Epiphone ones so they may have a bit more grip.

Great post George. Knock on wood, I have not had many issues with the inserts over the years. But always try the Titebond fix first. And be patient letting the glue cure. And most importantly, mind the grounding to the insert on the control side.

 

[JIO]

Blast from the past - Bond Girl outside show at the El Rio SF here in the Mission in August 2015. It was hot that day and we shed our jackets. Paul, who played horn & melodica w/BG then was out-of-town and Andy was still in the band. Steve was using the feature bands nice Sonar kit - sounded great. Cherie can walk to the club from her house, I'm a little further away. (5mins)

I'm posting it because I'll be using my T2K Mk II once again for Saturdays outdoor Fog Fest shows. I took it to last nights BG rehearsal and was continually smiling from how it sounded in the mix. I left it in passive mode and it sounded so clean and present - I have to play it more, it's such an awesome sounding bass. The '80's born G&L L2000 system (9v pre + MFD hum-buckers) I installed in the highly modified '06 Fender '51 P RI is (in my opinion) the best active system - made by Leo Fender. He started down that road with Music Man, but perfected it with G&L. It's fitting it was his last development before he passed away in March '91.

Body is ash, neck maple - I'd bet the L-2000 system/pu's in a mahogany TbSO would sound just as good, probably a little warmer in tone. N pu location is the same as my '64 II and B pu location is 1/2" higher (closer to the N pu by 1/2"). An ash bodied T-bird would sound pretty similar. (has there ever been an ash T-bird?) My Saundersbird has a mahogany body but a Kubicki 9v pre, which is a very different sounding preamp.

 

[MCF]

don’t wanna open (again) the can of worms on this one but calling them “weak link” on the design of the three point is unfair since the inserts were originally designed to sustain the downward force of the string tension, no more, no less. Understand that it can be lucrative catering to folks who should not be messing around with three point bridges in the first place but if you are going to do this the only elegant solution (imho) is two separate P/Ns from HS, one for Gibson, one for Eppi reflecting the baseplate clearance or lack thereoff....

Babicz takes the differences into account and includes special instructions.
Babicz FCH-3 Point Bass Bridge

I do not hate the three point. I like the preset radius. One less thing to deal with. It works well on most of my Thunderbirds.

Where I’ve had issues with inserts pulling up is when I’ve bought used Thunderbirds mucked up by prior owners.

I will likely install a black Babicz on the Gibson short scale. The three point is on the deck and I want a bit lower action. The Babicz will allow for that. And perhaps a chrome one on the Gibson ‘21 NR for the same reason, although the action is acceptable for me. But it could be a bee’s dick width lower…

I have the stock Babicz on the ‘15 and love it. That Thunderbird plays so incredibly well that I haven’t touched the setup in a long time. No need to. It’s perfect. I played it for hours on Sunday and questioned why I don’t just sell all the others and only play it (that’ll never happen).

I put a Babicz on the ‘13 to get the action lower. I am thinking of putting Babiczes on the Goth and Epi Blackbird to get the action lower on them.

All the above is based on my preference for low action, no fret buzz, and letting my wonderful amps do the heavy lifting instead of me. I never have to “dig in” once a bass is dialed in the way I like it. I don’t slap. But everyone plays differently, so what works for me may totally suck for others here. So take what I say with a grain of salt. And know that I can be a “a bit crazy” at times.

 

[MCF]

Here’s how that gets started.
This is from last weekend. It’s a Chesapeake Bay kinda thing.
Work boats come from all over the Bay to compete in a timed event. They take off from a standing start forward and back the boat into a slip at full throttle.
As they are coming into the slip the captain has to run around the boat and throw four ropes around four pilings… and stop the boat before it crashes into the bulkhead.
Nothing like watching someone else crash a boat at high speed
Lots of drinking going on. One Captain was throwing Fireball airplane bottles into the crowd after a successful run.
They do not test the Captains for BAC in Southern Maryland..at least at this event.
Cheers!
View attachment 5195447 View attachment 5195448 View attachment 5195449 View attachment 5195450 View attachment 5195451

My kind of gathering.

 

[MCF]

Blast from the past - Bond Girl outside show at the El Rio SF here in the Mission in August 2015. It was hot that day and we shed our jackets. Paul, who played horn & melodica w/BG then was out-of-town and Andy was still in the band. Steve was using the feature bands nice Sonar kit - sounded great. Cherie can walk to the club from her house, I'm a little further away. (5mins)

I'm posting it because I'll be using my T2K Mk II once again for Saturdays outdoor Fog Fest shows. I took it to last nights BG rehearsal and was continually smiling from how it sounded in the mix. I left it in passive mode and it sounded so clean and present - I have to play it more, it's such an awesome sounding bass. The '80's born G&L L2000 system (9v pre + MFD hum-buckers) I installed in the highly modified '06 Fender '51 P RI is (in my opinion) the best active system - made by Leo Fender. He started down that road with Music Man, but perfected it with G&L. It's fitting it was his last development before he passed away in March '91.

View attachment 5195897
Body is ash, neck maple - I'd bet the L-2000 system/pu's in a mahogany TbSO would sound just as good, probably a little warmer in tone. N pu location is the same as my '64 II and B pu location is 1/2" higher (closer to the N pu by 1/2"). An ash bodied T-bird would sound pretty similar. (has there ever been an ash T-bird?) My Saundersbird has a mahogany body but a Kubicki 9v pre, which is a very different sounding preamp.
View attachment 5195899

I’d play that.

 

[semiprohooker]

Babicz takes the differences into account and includes special instructions.
Babicz FCH-3 Point Bass Bridge

I do not hate the three point. I like the preset radius. One less thing to deal with. It works well on most of my Thunderbirds.

Where I’ve had issues with inserts pulling up is when I’ve bought used Thunderbirds mucked up by prior owners.

I will likely install a black Babicz on the Gibson short scale. The three point is on the deck and I want a bit lower action. The Babicz will allow for that. And perhaps a chrome one on the Gibson ‘21 NR for the same reason, although the action is acceptable for me. But it could be a bee’s dick width lower…

I have the stock Babicz on the ‘15 and love it. That Thunderbird plays so incredibly well that I haven’t touched the setup in a long time. No need to. It’s perfect. I played it for hours on Sunday and questioned why I don’t just sell all the others and only play it (that’ll never happen).

I put a Babicz on the ‘13 to get the action lower. I am thinking of putting Babiczes on the Goth and Epi Blackbird to get the action lower on them.

All the above is based on my preference for low action, no fret buzz, and letting my wonderful amps do the heavy lifting instead of me. I never have to “dig in” once a bass is dialed in the way I like it. I don’t slap. But everyone plays differently, so what works for me may totally suck for others here. So take what I say with a grain of salt. And know that I can be a “a bit crazy” at times.

I resemble that remark.

I'll let y'all figure out which one.