Thunderbird Club

[dagrev]

Plenty people on here have them.

Yes. Seriously doubt they are legit. Likely faked the Epi stickers and away they went. Curious is the newer Epis actually don't have the stamp on the back. But still seems odd that a handful of people in China would be selling them and Epi is not. If they were from the same manufacturer you would think Epis contract would forbid using the Epi name since they would seem to get nothing from the sale.

 

[dagrev]

Wacoal Bikinis for this Queen, Frank knows what I like!

TMI, TMI!

 

[dagrev]

The pickups in the Epi '64 do not say "Epiphone 760" on the bottom. I think the 760's are only in the Indonesian production. I.E. Vintage Pro and '60s Thunderbird. Just my .02, but I like the newer ones in the '64 much better than the '760s, no lack of bottom or lo mid.

Thanks V! But you still prefer the Gibson Reissue's even better, correct? Those were what I was thinking of installing.

 

[dagrev]

If I get some spare time tomorrow I can lift a pup out of my purple sparkle Eppi and snap a pic of the back plate. To my ears they do sound different than my first run VP.

Thanks. Different in what way(s)? More full?

 

[Miles_ONeal]

Yeah, in '78 it would be a TB-900, you can see here in the '78 Catalogue, under the Project Series it's listed as TB-900.

https://vintagejapanguitars.com/greco-1978-catalogue-vol-9/

Still the TB-900 in 1981

https://vintagejapanguitars.com/greco-1981-catalogue-vol-13/

But by 1982...it's the TB64-80. That also appears in the '84 catalogue, which is the last appearance of the II that I can find in Greco's documentation.

https://vintagejapanguitars.com/greco-1982-mint-collection-catalogue/

They also changed the series designation. Originally the TB basses, and the PMB Rick clones, were part of the Project series. By '83, the TB is in the Mint Collection (Greco's Gibson lineup), while the PMBs are in the Personal Series,

Those catalogs are a great resource. I don’t read Japanese but at least one can see what was available when and the model numbers.

 

[TBird1958]

If I get some spare time tomorrow I can lift a pup out of my purple sparkle Eppi and snap a pic of the back plate. To my ears they do sound different than my first run VP.

I had to fuss with my Sparkle Blue one a little when I first got it, including getting the bridge pickup to "seat" level, in doing so I took it out of the bass and looked the pickup over, not stamped like the original production at all. I agree completely that they sound different - I like them a lot better and won't be changing them out as I did with the originals.

 

[Thumper]

Now if we could legitimately figure out how to source them and not end up with Chinabuckers.

 

[GBassNorth]

Thanks V! But you still prefer the Gibson Reissue's even better, correct? Those were what I was thinking of installing.

Thanks. Different in what way(s)? More full?

I’m with Veronica on this one. I think the original 760ProBuckers as found in the original VP bird are great pickups but when played back to back with Gibson Reissues they aren’t quite as rich, complex or full sounding.

That said, I’m very much a fan of the new Eppi ‘64 reissue Tbird and its sound. I’ll play it back to back with my Gibby NR Reissue to see which I prefer and why. Im not quite set up for recording just yet (if I can patch something together to capture the sound I will) but I’ll try to do a quick shoot out today with the following basses…

2017 Eppi VP with Fender 7250 round wound nickel plated steel strings and original pups
2024 Eppi ‘64 reissue in purple sparkle with stock nickel round wound strings and original pups

2022 Gibson NR Reissue with 7250 round wound nickel strings and original Gibson reissue pups
North ‘66 NR Tribute with 7259 round wound nickel strings, first run 760ProBucker pups in true 1966 locations

That should give you a relatively fair comparison of new ProBuckers vs old and Gibson reissues vs either ProBucker.

 

[dagrev]

I’m with Veronica on this one. I think the original 760ProBuckers as found in the original VP bird are great pickups but when played back to back with Gibson Reissues they aren’t quite as rich, complex or full sounding.

That said, I’m very much a fan of the new Eppi ‘64 reissue Tbird and its sound. I’ll play it back to back with my Gibby NR Reissue to see which I prefer and why. Im not quite set up for recording just yet (if I can patch something together to capture the sound I will) but I’ll try to do a quick shoot out today with the following basses…

2017 Eppi VP with Fender 7250 round wound nickel plated steel strings and original pups
2024 Eppi ‘64 reissue in purple sparkle with stock nickel round wound strings and original pups

2022 Gibson NR Reissue with 7250 round wound nickel strings and original Gibson reissue pups
North ‘66 NR Tribute with 7259 round wound nickel strings, first run 760ProBucker pups in true 1966 locations

That should give you a relatively fair comparison of new ProBuckers vs old and Gibson reissues vs either ProBucker.

No rush, but thank you for feeding the bass nerds in all of us!

 

[TBird1958]

Thanks V! But you still prefer the Gibson Reissue's even better, correct? Those were what I was thinking of installing.

For your restoration project I would look for and seriously consider any of the following that you can find/afford, in no particular order

Lull
Lollar
Thunderbucker Ranch
Gibson
Seymour Duncan Custom Shop

The first three are unlikely, with Lollar at least being available, to my ears the current Gibson Re-issues are hard to beat at their price point. I do like the SD Custom Shop a little better overall, but they're a lot more money. $440.00pr when I bought them vs. $260.00pr for Gibson.
To start, I would sit down with your Red NR and both of your amps, it's closest to what the restored NR is, set neck etc., and really listen to what the Gibson pickups can do, I personally really like them, my '21 is a great sounding bass as is my VP that has them in it.

It's just dismal weather here today, so gratuitous warm day pic.

 

[GBassNorth]

Now if we could legitimately figure out how to source them and not end up with Chinabuckers.

The funny thing is, the ChinaBuckers in my BlingBird sound fantastic as do the ChinaBuckers in my White BaCH (very different string and pup locations though). I went to the trouble and cost of sourcing original run Eppi VP 760ProBuckers for my ‘66 NR Tribute bass, and to my ears in non back to back playing I just don’t hear a lot of difference between the ProBuckers and the ChinaBuckers. And again in non back to back playing my recollection is that both of those fall a little short of the new Eppi ‘64 Reissue pickups (how much of that is string selection is yet to be determined, the new Eppi stock strings sound great, wish I knew what they were).

So in just random non back to back playing in a mix and going by recollection - I like the ‘64 Eppi pickups best, followed very closely by the Gibson reissues, followed by a toss up of the original 760ProBuckers and ChinaBuckers.

As you note, the challenge is how to source the ‘64 Eppi reissue pup (which is still called an 760ProBucker if I’m not mistaken) and not end up with a ChinaBucker. The best way to do that would be to get a photo of the back of the ‘64 eppi pup and compare it to what’s being sold on eBay. The stickers should be ignored, too easy to copy, but the hole patterns, lead wire and solder patterns might provide a clue (not sure how much variation there is in the DC resistance but that might help as well).

Edit:
Of course the simple solution is to just call Eppi to see if they officially sell their 760proBucker pickups on the open market. If they don’t, then just assume anyone advertising them for sale is a scammer or counterfeiter and go directly to the Gibson shop to buy a very nice set of Tbird pickups that just about anyone would be more than happy to play.

 

[AllieCat]

Yes. Seriously doubt they are legit. Likely faked the Epi stickers and away they went. Curious is the newer Epis actually don't have the stamp on the back. But still seems odd that a handful of people in China would be selling them and Epi is not. If they were from the same manufacturer you would think Epis contract would forbid using the Epi name since they would seem to get nothing from the sale.

It's not exactly uncommon for Chinese OEM's to just not gaf about the contract, especially if the company they're working with doesn't follow the letter of the contract themselves. Copies and counterfeits making their way into grey markets is part of the cost of doing business over there. Cisco Systems had to learn this the hard way not too long ago. Gibson/Epiphone probably are aware of this and while they may be frustrated by it, usually a party to such dealings doesn't have all that much recourse.

It's also fairly common for your partner company in China to pass the technical data and IP they've obtained from your US based company up the chain and for that information to make its way into the hands of other factories and shops elsewhere in China. Not much you can do there either, often the CCP is involved themselves and there's not much you're going to be able to do to them in court.

It would be interesting to get an authentic example and one of the dubious grey market examples and open them up to compare specs. They may be factory seconds, they may be reverse engineered copies, they may be cost engineered copies based off of an authentic technical data package. Fun thing is even if you did some measurements and observation of an example of an ebay sourced Chinabucker, there's no guarantee that it will be representative of all of them in the market, as they may in actuality be coming from multiple sources.

 

[PhR75]

P.F.M. 1976. Looks like a T-Bird there. Patrick Djivas used a Ripper quite a lot and a G-3 if I recall correctly but never seen him with a Thunderbird before this.

When he was with Area in 1973 he had this modded fretless Jazz Bass. A slanted Fender humbucker?

 

[Nocturnal]

I have a KickA$$ and a Supertone and a Warwick bridge in the parts bin. The KickA$$ is the most straight forward install of the three, the other two will require routing or anchors. So probably the kickA$$ bridge.
The body is a Rosser from eBay. Very reasonably priced and high quality but tendency to be on the heavy side, I specifically requested a light one.

I have one of his bodies for a project and you are correct, it is heavy ash.

Those catalogs are a great resource. I don’t read Japanese but at least one can see what was available when and the model numbers.

I was thinking that earlier. I am glad some of these old catalogs are out there to help clarify guitar history and construction.

 

[GBassNorth]

It's not exactly uncommon for Chinese OEM's to just not gaf about the contract, especially if the company they're working with doesn't follow the letter of the contract themselves. Copies and counterfeits making their way into grey markets is part of the cost of doing business over there. Cisco Systems had to learn this the hard way not too long ago. Gibson/Epiphone probably are aware of this and while they may be frustrated by it, usually a party to such dealings doesn't have all that much recourse.

It's also fairly common for your partner company in China to pass the technical data and IP they've obtained from your US based company up the chain and for that information to make its way into the hands of other factories and shops elsewhere in China. Not much you can do there either, often the CCP is involved themselves and there's not much you're going to be able to do to them in court.

It would be interesting to get an authentic example and one of the dubious grey market examples and open them up to compare specs. They may be factory seconds, they may be reverse engineered copies, they may be cost engineered copies based off of an authentic technical data package. Fun thing is even if you did some measurements and observation of an example of an ebay sourced Chinabucker, there's no guarantee that it will be representative of all of them in the market, as they may in actuality be coming from multiple sources.

^This times a thousand!!!

Sounds like you’ve had a number of business dealings with Chinese suppliers. I spent over ten years working major projects in China for a US based global consumer products corporation and saw daily on a very large scale the exact things you’ve mentioned. Counterfeiting, misrepresentation, and redirection of legit products and intellectual property has no bounds there. It can be managed to a large degree with lots of oversight and cross checking but rework and confiscation is about the only recourse.

Are the eBay advertised pickups legit? Maybe, maybe some, maybe none. The tack I’d take is to confirm with Eppi if they sell their pickups on the open market, if not, it’s a hard pass. Sure you might get a great sounding pickup and it might even be a legit Eppi pickup, but if so it’s been black marketed and there’s no guarantees on anything.

 

[Miles_ONeal]

P.F.M. 1976. Looks like a T-Bird there. Patrick Djivas used a Ripper quite a lot and a G-3 if I recall correctly but never seen him with a Thunderbird before this.

When he was with Area in 1973 he had this modded fretless Jazz Bass. A slanted Fender humbucker?

I saw them in 1975 in Atlanta - great band! You are only the second or third person I've run across who's seen them. Alas, I don't recall what any of them were playing.

 

[Engle]

I was killing (wasting) time and sent a message to on the many ebay sellers in China selling Epi 760s and asked if they were sure those were Epi pickups as all I have seen has Epi stamped on the bottom. They said they were the new 750s. I assume they meant 760s, but seem unlikely 8 people on ebay sell Epi pickups when Epi does not. China at it's best again?

Has anyone seen the latest Epi version and what might be on the bottom, or not

The pickups in the Epi '64 do not say "Epiphone 760" on the bottom. I think the 760's are only in the Indonesian production. I.E. Vintage Pro and '60s Thunderbird. Just my .02, but I like the newer ones in the '64 much better than the '760s, no lack of bottom or low

I think wherever they are made, there can differences in production runs.

 

[MCF]

It's not exactly uncommon for Chinese OEM's to just not gaf about the contract, especially if the company they're working with doesn't follow the letter of the contract themselves. Copies and counterfeits making their way into grey markets is part of the cost of doing business over there. Cisco Systems had to learn this the hard way not too long ago. Gibson/Epiphone probably are aware of this and while they may be frustrated by it, usually a party to such dealings doesn't have all that much recourse.

It's also fairly common for your partner company in China to pass the technical data and IP they've obtained from your US based company up the chain and for that information to make its way into the hands of other factories and shops elsewhere in China. Not much you can do there either, often the CCP is involved themselves and there's not much you're going to be able to do to them in court.

It would be interesting to get an authentic example and one of the dubious grey market examples and open them up to compare specs. They may be factory seconds, they may be reverse engineered copies, they may be cost engineered copies based off of an authentic technical data package. Fun thing is even if you did some measurements and observation of an example of an ebay sourced Chinabucker, there's no guarantee that it will be representative of all of them in the market, as they may in actuality be coming from multiple sources.

I am really happy with the Gibson reissue that we put in one of my BaCHs. And they are great in my ‘21 NR. I don’t think I’ll be trying any of those budget priced pickups in any of my Thunderbirds.

 

[MCF]

P.F.M. 1976. Looks like a T-Bird there. Patrick Djivas used a Ripper quite a lot and a G-3 if I recall correctly but never seen him with a Thunderbird before this.

When he was with Area in 1973 he had this modded fretless Jazz Bass. A slanted Fender humbucker?

I really enjoyed Cook when it came out.

 

[MCF]

^This times a thousand!!!

Sounds like you’ve had a number of business dealings with Chinese suppliers. I spent over ten years working major projects in China for a US based global consumer products corporation and saw daily on a very large scale the exact things you’ve mentioned. Counterfeiting, misrepresentation, and redirection of legit products and intellectual property has no bounds there. It can be managed to a large degree with lots of oversight and cross checking but rework and confiscation is about the only recourse.

Are the eBay advertised pickups legit? Maybe, maybe some, maybe none. The tack I’d take is to confirm with Eppi if they sell their pickups on the open market, if not, it’s a hard pass. Sure you might get a great sounding pickup and it might even be a legit Eppi pickup, but if so it’s been black marketed and there’s no guarantees on anything.

Frankly, buying black market is just something I don’t do. Others’ mileage may vary.