Thunderbird Club

[hairypete1138]

Yeah, yeah, you'd use 2 mics if you were tracking it. Man, ya gotta have a 57 on the snare! I've recently come around to mid/side micing as a useful technique. One of these days I'm determined I'm going to play with all this again.

I’m no studio engineer, but the best results i’ve had with drums (bearing in mind i’m Limited to four tracks) has been a 58 on the kick, 57 to the side of the snare (picks up a bit of extra hi-hat too) and two small diaphragm condensers overhead. I can mix the levels on the 4-track and send the feed out as a stereo out to the main mixer. Seems to work a charm in my usual DIY manner!

 

[dukeorock]

Yeah, yeah, you'd use 2 mics if you were tracking it. Man, ya gotta have a 57 on the snare! I've recently come around to mid/side micing as a useful technique. One of these days I'm determined I'm going to play with all this again.

You should!

As for ‘you gotta use a 57 on the snare.’ You don’t ‘gotta’ do anything! On early rock and roll, the drums ain’t close mic’d at all! Put a ribbon mic in the middle of the room and move it around until you like it.

The reason I only used two mics on drums for the Prayer Flags record isn’t because I have some established technique and adhere to a two mic thing. I did it for two reasons.

1. I didn’t know we were making a record
2. I often get lazy and impatient in the studio if I’m forced to be the engineer.
I just want to keep moving and hear all the parts in the song because I’m excited.
I just don’t believe in absolutes in the studio, period

 

[kat888]

Mid /side explained. This engineer seems to like a lot of mics too.

 

[TBird1958]

It applies to everything, BUT it begins and ends with the drummer, at least in rock music, IMO

Your band is only as good as your drummer....................


Absolute truth there!

 

[mistergoats]

But it actually is a lifestyle brand, when you think about the consumer behavior involved. Look at us for example. We have been brought together as result of our mutual interest in bass guitars and a particular brand and model of guitar. We regularly spend hours out of our days musing about everything from the materials in our strings and picks, to the pickups and bridges. On average, we have spent years playing, many of us since childhood. We have spent thousands on our gear. Thus, we spend our discretionary time and money devoted to this activity. This would seem to be a definition of lifestyle.

We often self-identify as musicians and bass players. We can show this by wearing the gear that you mentioned (caps, shirts, etc.), much like sports fans.

Under Armour, Nike and Adidas, to name a few, are also classified as lifestyle brands. They spend millions to put their brands on the backs of athletes at every level, to encourage kids to wear them. The industry also spends tons to fund youth sports and campaigns to get kids moving (esp. in U.S.). The NFL (American pro football) spends tons these days trying to fend off the decline in participation in football because of head injury concerns by parents.

One of the challenges both industries face is the competition posed by video games, which have even escalated to the point of competitive (and televised) sports entertainment (eSports leagues). For immigration purposes, the U.S. now recognizes eSports competitors as pro athletes.

Exercise can be boring and painful. Plus, it requires discipline, much like learning and mastering a musical instrument. Why not just go home and play Call of Duty or Guitar Hero?

I question whether the music industry as a whole (and musical instrument companies in particular) are doing enough, or being effective with their efforts, at getting kids into this lifestyle at an early age? Do you folks in other countries see the above trends going on in your parts of the world? It sounds like gear is typically more expensive and/or harder to find there, which also creates barriers to entry.

I totally see what you're saying, and I agree that this is lifestyle, but when specifically referring to something as a "lifestyle brand", the difference, as you stated at the end, is the barrier-to-entry price-point.

Nike, Adidas, Under Armour don't sell items in the $2000 price range. They sell seasonal and fashion turnover items mostly in the sub-$200 category. Which is exactly where you want to be as a lifestyle brand, including contributions to communities, funding, etc.

Gibson has sold the same ~$1500+ (CAD) items for the past 70 years. That's not a lifestyle brand. That's more akin to an auto manufacturing business model. Yes, you can buy Gibson t-shirts and hats and stuff like Nike and Under Armour, but clothes lines aren't the crux of their business. They also bought other high-price, low-turnover pro-audio companies to diversify their portfolio with effectively the SAME style of items they already had in their quiver.

To be clear, I'm not at all disagreeing with you that this very specific thread is a based on a lifestyle, I'm simply saying that Gibson, as a brand, is not a lifestyle brand as it pertains to the current marketing environment. It's a relatively high-cost/low-turnover model, quite the opposite of the lifestyle brand model.

 

[dukeorock]

Mid /side explained. This enginner seems to like a lot of mics too.

The Blumlein thing...worked with many engineers who do it and of course it ‘works.’ Hell, the engineer last night started with setting up that exact Blumlein config. Pretty tried and true at this point.

 

[theFixer]

You should!

As for ‘you gotta use a 57 on the snare.’ You don’t ‘gotta’ do anything! On early rock and roll, the drums ain’t close mic’d at all! Put a ribbon mic in the middle of the room and move it around until you like it.

The reason I only used two mics on drums for the Prayer Flags record isn’t because I have some established technique and adhere to a two mic thing. I did it for two reasons.

1. I didn’t know we were making a record
2. I often get lazy and impatient in the studio if I’m forced to be the engineer.
I just want to keep moving and hear all the parts in the song because I’m excited.
I just don’t believe in absolutes in the studio, period

MAN... back in my hey-day as a drummer... I would've LOVED to work with you (hell... for that matter, I'd love to now)! I had a very Bonhamesque approach. I used full heads top & bottom... including the bass drum... no muffles or ports (sound guys HATED me). I spent a great deal of time tuning them, so inner and outer heads had complimentary tone, and over-ring that wasn't sour, and I checked and maintained them often. IMO... drummers who don't tune their drums, deserve all the "stupid drummer" jokes they get... same as any blonde who is content to keep herself stupid & get by on her looks. I played hard & heavy, but loved finesse and dynamics. Above all else... groove is lord, king, and master of all. Fills were to be used sparingly, only when appropriate, and had to fit the groove. They were meant to showcase the song... NOT the drummer. I was all about the quick licks & ghost notes more so than the (no disrespect) Neil Peart top-to-bottom 5 bar fills. I had/have no use for drum solos... but would sell my soul to groove with good band mates. Damn, I miss that.

 

[kat888]

The Blumlein thing...worked with many engineers who do it and of course it ‘works.’ Hell, the engineer last night started with setting up that exact Blumlein config. Pretty tried and true at this point.

Me not seen before. But my studio time has been limited.

 

[Stevis]

I totally see what you're saying, and I agree that this is lifestyle, but when specifically referring to something as a "lifestyle brand", the difference, as you stated at the end, is the barrier-to-entry price-point.

Nike, Adidas, Under Armour don't sell items in the $2000 price range. They sell seasonal and fashion turnover items mostly in the sub-$200 category. Which is exactly where you want to be as a lifestyle brand, including contributions to communities, funding, etc.

Gibson has sold the same ~$1500+ (CAD) items for the past 70 years. That's not a lifestyle brand. That's more akin to an auto manufacturing business model. Yes, you can buy Gibson t-shirts and hats and stuff like Nike and Under Armour, but clothes lines aren't the crux of their business. They also bought other high-price, low-turnover pro-audio companies to diversify their portfolio with effectively the SAME style of items they already had in their quiver.

To be clear, I'm not at all disagreeing with you that this very specific thread is a based on a lifestyle, I'm simply saying that Gibson, as a brand, is not a lifestyle brand as it pertains to the current marketing environment. It's a relatively high-cost/low-turnover model, quite the opposite of the lifestyle brand model.

I get what you are saying about price point. And you are correct that many sporting goods items are sold at a lower initial price point. Likewise, it has been argued that 80% of athletic shoes/apparel is used a street wear.

Not to quibble but another example of sport and fitness marketing that is equivelant to your point would be our friends on the list who have bicycles. I see this where I live. The yuppies are out on $10k Italian road bikes, with the expensive bike apparel, shoes and titanium bottle holder ("needed" because drag is less in that it only weighs 3 ounces). Bikes need regular maintenance and equipment replacement costs. They need bike racks. And some of these folks never compete, similar to some of us who haven't taken the stage in years. But they self-identify as cyclists.

REI is another great example of lifestyle marketing. They sell spendy bikes, spendy tents and spendy clothing. Again, it is a lifestyle.

I am sure most consumers don't think about it this way but add up the costs of workout apparel, shoes, gym memberships, supplements, etc. - all of which is replaced or renewed on a yearly basis. In three years, they could easily have spent the cost of the new Epi VP. Whereas the Epi could last them a lifetime. Likewise, I can use 0% interest 12-36 month payment plan at GC, MF.com, or Sweetwater and have axe or amp in hand.

In many ways, we have it better than a lot of musicians, when it comes to our bang for the buck. Look at cost of good violins or cellos. We can bag a quality instrument and amp for a fraction of those costs, which will last us forever.

I am not an expert but I wonder if the lifestyle brand moniker isn't something actually attached to them by the financial services industry, when classifying (and rating) businesses and their valuations?

I would also suggest that Gibson and other instrument companies need to think about themselves as lifestyle brands, to really get a true sense of their competition and consumers. Although, I totally agree with you about them needing to pay more attention to their gear (R&D, quality and product mix) as opposed to t-shirts and caps.

I'll stop now.

 

[Shannon]

No, you're thinking of his wife, Dot. Dot Matrix.

Do you blame him?

 

[Shannon]

It didn’t make the… cut…
@Shannon I beat you to it

YEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHH!

 

[Shannon]

Nice SSL console though...
View attachment 2931005 View attachment 2931007

And it takes all this fine equipment to try cutting out an angry 'Bird.

 

[Inky13]

MAN... back in my hey-day as a drummer... I would've LOVED to work with you (hell... for that matter, I'd love to now)! I had a very Bonhamesque approach. I used full heads top & bottom... including the bass drum... no muffles or ports (sound guys HATED me). I spent a great deal of time tuning them, so inner and outer heads had complimentary tone, and over-ring that wasn't sour, and I checked and maintained them often. IMO... drummers who don't tune their drums, deserve all the "stupid drummer" jokes they get... same as any blonde who is content to keep herself stupid & get by on her looks. I played hard & heavy, but loved finesse and dynamics. Above all else... groove is lord, king, and master of all. Fills were to be used sparingly, only when appropriate, and had to fit the groove. They were meant to showcase the song... NOT the drummer. I was all about the quick licks & ghost notes more so than the (no disrespect) Neil Peart top-to-bottom 5 bar fills. I had/have no use for drum solos... but would sell my soul to groove with good band mates. Damn, I miss that.

I wish my drummer had your approach and outlook.

 

[kat888]

All of this 'lifestyle brand' -- hell even 'lifestyle' and 'brand' -- malarky goes totally over my head/straight through to the 'keeper with me. My brain pretty much blocks out all advertising, which probably makes for a happier life.

 

[Shannon]

This engineer went nutty on the drum mic’ing. 3 mics on the snare, one on the hats, rack tom, floor tom, 2 overheads, THREE mics on the kick drum, stereo drum room mics. One track for bass. Anywhere from 2-6 guitar tracks, lead vocal, couple tracks of bgv’s and that’s it

Whadda ya mean, one track for bass? That track coulda been used by a lead guitarist for Pete's sake!

Well, sure...if you’re mic’ing John Bonham

Man, I’ve made a ton of recordings in my life. Many thousands. It’s been my main fascination since I was a little kid. Studied all the different ways to mic a kit, recorded in so many different sounding rooms. There’s only one ‘trick’ that works and it works every time. Use a great drummer
It’s really hard to get a bad drum sound out of a great drummer and even harder to get a great sound out of a less than great drummer

But if you have a great drummer, how can you fire him?

You must be out of turd polish

Really... that rule applies to guitar players & the likes as well. Put the best gear in the world, in front of Wanky the Clown, & he'll still suck rocks

And since he has the best guitar/gear, Wanky will decide he's lead, fire the great drummer and tell the bassist who has no tracks to turn down...

 

[dukeorock]

MAN... back in my hey-day as a drummer... I would've LOVED to work with you (hell... for that matter, I'd love to now)! I had a very Bonhamesque approach. I used full heads top & bottom... including the bass drum... no muffles or ports (sound guys HATED me). I spent a great deal of time tuning them, so inner and outer heads had complimentary tone, and over-ring that wasn't sour, and I checked and maintained them often. IMO... drummers who don't tune their drums, deserve all the "stupid drummer" jokes they get... same as any blonde who is content to keep herself stupid & get by on her looks. I played hard & heavy, but loved finesse and dynamics. Above all else... groove is lord, king, and master of all. Fills were to be used sparingly, only when appropriate, and had to fit the groove. They were meant to showcase the song... NOT the drummer. I was all about the quick licks & ghost notes more so than the (no disrespect) Neil Peart top-to-bottom 5 bar fills. I had/have no use for drum solos... but would sell my soul to groove with good band mates. Damn, I miss that.

Makes perfect sense to me! One or two relatively fancy bits in a song will impress more people than showing off at every opportunity, I think

Not to quibble but another example of sport and fitness marketing that is equivelant to your point would be our friends on the list who have bicycles. I see this where I live. The yuppies are out on $10k Italian road bikes, with the expensive bike apparel, shoes and titanium bottle holder ("needed" because drag is less in that it only weighs 3 ounces). Bikes need regular maintenance and equipment replacement costs. They need bike racks. And some of these folks never compete, similar to some of us who haven't taken the stage in years. But they self-identify as cyclists.


I am not an expert but I wonder if the lifestyle brand moniker isn't something actually attached to them by the financial services industry, when classifying (and rating) businesses and their valuations?
.

I remember reading an article shortly after Henry J took over Gibson where he spoke of rebranding Gibson into a ‘lifestyle brand.’ He’s gotten a lot of hate recently, but I think he was unlikeable from the get go

I also identify myself as a cyclist. I also ride an Italian bike! Didn’t cost $10k but I would if I could. There’s just no harm in indulging your hobbies if you love em that much. I have a buddy who owns more basses and gear than I ever will and he’s never been in a band and doesn’t want to be. Never had or will play a gig. But he loves (and can afford) really cool gear...I don’t get it, but it’s also none of my business what people do to find their own joy

And it takes all this fine equipment to try cutting out an angry 'Bird.

Man!!! The band and engineer flipped out over the bass sound last night...it really did sound awesome

 

[kat888]

Man!!! The band and engineer flipped out over the bass sound last night...it really did sound awesome

The difference between doing your own recording and turning up for a session eh? -- 'what the fvck is that!?'

 

[dukeorock]

The difference between doing your own recording and turning up for a session eh? -- 'what the fvck is that!?'

It’s always nice when someone confirms something you strongly suspect to be true

 

[Stevis]

All of this 'lifestyle brand' -- hell even 'lifestyle' and 'brand' -- malarky goes totally over my head/straight through to the 'keeper with me. My brain pretty much blocks out all advertising, which probably makes for a happier life.

That may be true but you are a bass playing, cat owning, urban female, who likes tea and ginger snaps (esp. the tins). So, in the words of Blondie, "One way, or another, their gonna getcha, getcha, getcha . . . One day, maybe next week . . .". You are brand loyal to certain bass stuff. I am betting you also have an affinity for other brands. So, the marketers have reached you, whether through advertising or other evils. They "might" also have affected the man with the 8th wonder of the world shoe closet!

 

[theFixer]

I wish my drummer had your approach and outlook.

At the risk of sounding boastful... I'm pretty proud of the drummer I became. Musicians wanted to play with me. Even ones I'd never met. I never quite figured out how to process that. It sure did make me feel good though