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Times when it went differently
- Thread starter LBS-bass
- Start date
JeezyMcNuggles
Inactive
- Feb 23, 2018
- 14,723
- 20,970
- Disclosures
- I suck, but nobody really notices
It doesn't happen. You can't change people, places, or things. You can only change the people you hang around, the places you go, and the things you do.I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.
But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:
OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.
TB: You should talk to him/her.
I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?
I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.
Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.
Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity
I wouldn't have done it the way he did, he could have included everyone,
but I'm pretty sure only lyrics and melody can be copyrighted.
Is it generational or just inconsiderate people in general?I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.
But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:
OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.
TB: You should talk to him/her.
I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?
I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.
Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.
Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity
Here's how things have gone in my life. When I perceive someone has truly disrespected me, I start a conversation.
About a third of the time I'm right. They don't get it. Nothing is going to change. We part ways.
About a third of the time, there's some disrespect there. But either it wasn't intended or that person just didn't think my issue was a "big deal". Things get hammered out. That person apologizes and agrees that we won't have to have this talk again.
And about a third of the time I COMPLETELY misread the situation from the beginning. Hugs all around. Life returns to normal.
This example didn't happen to me. But it happened to a good friend. I advised him to talk it out. I'm going to use the fake name "Joe" for my friend moving forward for clarity.
So, he's a long-term fill-in guitar player for an established pro corporate/party/bar band. He has an artist gig that takes him away from that band a few times a year. The band is trying to hire a new guitar player, but isn't having any luck. Joe is content for now staying in the band and getting them a fill in when the artist books a show. The band is fine with that too. Joe can freakin play.
He had talked with the band leader months ago and told him that he needed to be kept in the loop about guitar auditions. Joe likes to budget months in advance. So he needs to know how much money will be coming in from this gig.
Recently there was an audition held. Joe saw it on the band calendar. But he wasn't told about it. He thought he was being disrespected. He asked the band leader, and it turns out that the BL is going g through a BUNCH of personal problems (divorce, mother in and out of the hospital, father sick as well, etc.) and that caused the audition to just slip his mind. My friend was OK with that. Misunderstanding #1 taken care of.
But then Joe sees a rehearsal on the books with that guitar player. Now he's FLIPPING OUT! He calls me to vent. He's all upset because the band is going to work in the new guy and then kick him to the curb with no notice. He's going on and on about friendship and loyalty. (He and the BL go way back.) He's ready to go get his amp out of the band truck and tell them all to F off!
I advise him to take a breath and call the BL. (I've known the BL for years myself and this didn't seem like his style.)
So he calls the guy. Turns out, it was all a big misunderstanding. BL had told the band that Joe was locked in at least through New Year's Eve. But he forgot to tell Joe.
Now, old Joe thought the band leader was being a jerk. Turns out the BL was just overwhelmed with family issues. He's just going through a rough patch. But he absolutely had Joe locked in for all the great big-money holiday gigs. And he had no intention of kicking Joe to the curb.
What about the rehearsal, you ask? Well, the guitar player had a "meh" audition. He was just "OK". But he thinks he can get it together. So the BL said "Here. Practice these ten songs and come to the beginning of our next rehearsal. If you nail those, maybe we can talk".
Even THAT wasn't "disrespecting" Joe.
But my hot head buddy was ready to end a friendship AND throw out thousands of dollars of gigs between now and (at least) New Years (if not even beyond that).
Two days ago there was no convincing Joe that he wasn't being crapped on. It took me lunch at his favorite barbecue joint amd about an hour to talk him out if taking a flame thrower (figuratively) to the whole thing.
Here's my questions @LBS-bass
In most cases, what's the harm in having a conversation about things, even if the end results are the same? Is it your pride?
I'm not bashing you. I can tell you're a class act. I'm just curious as to why you wouldn't just talk things out either way.
About a third of the time I'm right. They don't get it. Nothing is going to change. We part ways.
About a third of the time, there's some disrespect there. But either it wasn't intended or that person just didn't think my issue was a "big deal". Things get hammered out. That person apologizes and agrees that we won't have to have this talk again.
And about a third of the time I COMPLETELY misread the situation from the beginning. Hugs all around. Life returns to normal.
This example didn't happen to me. But it happened to a good friend. I advised him to talk it out. I'm going to use the fake name "Joe" for my friend moving forward for clarity.
So, he's a long-term fill-in guitar player for an established pro corporate/party/bar band. He has an artist gig that takes him away from that band a few times a year. The band is trying to hire a new guitar player, but isn't having any luck. Joe is content for now staying in the band and getting them a fill in when the artist books a show. The band is fine with that too. Joe can freakin play.
He had talked with the band leader months ago and told him that he needed to be kept in the loop about guitar auditions. Joe likes to budget months in advance. So he needs to know how much money will be coming in from this gig.
Recently there was an audition held. Joe saw it on the band calendar. But he wasn't told about it. He thought he was being disrespected. He asked the band leader, and it turns out that the BL is going g through a BUNCH of personal problems (divorce, mother in and out of the hospital, father sick as well, etc.) and that caused the audition to just slip his mind. My friend was OK with that. Misunderstanding #1 taken care of.
But then Joe sees a rehearsal on the books with that guitar player. Now he's FLIPPING OUT! He calls me to vent. He's all upset because the band is going to work in the new guy and then kick him to the curb with no notice. He's going on and on about friendship and loyalty. (He and the BL go way back.) He's ready to go get his amp out of the band truck and tell them all to F off!
I advise him to take a breath and call the BL. (I've known the BL for years myself and this didn't seem like his style.)
So he calls the guy. Turns out, it was all a big misunderstanding. BL had told the band that Joe was locked in at least through New Year's Eve. But he forgot to tell Joe.
Now, old Joe thought the band leader was being a jerk. Turns out the BL was just overwhelmed with family issues. He's just going through a rough patch. But he absolutely had Joe locked in for all the great big-money holiday gigs. And he had no intention of kicking Joe to the curb.
What about the rehearsal, you ask? Well, the guitar player had a "meh" audition. He was just "OK". But he thinks he can get it together. So the BL said "Here. Practice these ten songs and come to the beginning of our next rehearsal. If you nail those, maybe we can talk".
Even THAT wasn't "disrespecting" Joe.
But my hot head buddy was ready to end a friendship AND throw out thousands of dollars of gigs between now and (at least) New Years (if not even beyond that).
Two days ago there was no convincing Joe that he wasn't being crapped on. It took me lunch at his favorite barbecue joint amd about an hour to talk him out if taking a flame thrower (figuratively) to the whole thing.
Here's my questions @LBS-bass
In most cases, what's the harm in having a conversation about things, even if the end results are the same? Is it your pride?
I'm not bashing you. I can tell you're a class act. I'm just curious as to why you wouldn't just talk things out either way.
i had a situation in banking working as a dual employee at a bank and a third party marketing firm. So I had two managers, on from the bank, and one from the third party firm. The third part firm (which is no longer in business), handled about 23 community banks, and I worked at a very conservative mid size community bank. I had a really good relationship with the chairman of the board and the bank President.
Well my two mangers conspired to get me fired. The bank manager was totally offended a) I was not a college graduate, and b, I was making a good bit more than here due to incentive compensation from the 3rd party firm. And she really went off the edge when I won a trip for two to Acapulco for sales and tried to have the bank President quash it. In the end, she gave the bank President the "it's him or me speech" and he fired her.
Speaking of actions, my manager from the 3rd party firm came into my office and started rearranging it, was pretty rude and reported to back President that my office was a mess. He also reported back to the President that in a compliance meeting that I was late, my sales were abysmal compression to others, and I wasn't paying attention. Without his cohort, he back off quite a bit. Eventually I took a position with another bank, and his firm went out of business shortly there after (no, It wasn't me that tanked the firm LOL!!).
About 10 years later, I'm conducting a meeting for new hires at a large online bank and there in the front row is Ms. Witch, who came up to me all smiles like she was my best friend telling me about her new entry level position.
2 years later I ran into the President of the 3rd party firm I worked for who was looking for a guy like me to work in his very small Credit Union he was setting up with guess who? Yup, Mr Nasty. So I met with him over coffee. He apologized profusely for how he treated me and explained what was going on internally with the third party marketing firm at that time which was the basis his actions. In a nutshell, it wasn't personal, was business. Obviously to me it sure seemed personal, but there was a structural problem with that firm's contract with the banks in the state, a boatload of money at stake, and quite frankly, they were desperate. He was pretty earnest and I took him at his word. Unfortunately, before they could get it up and running, I got another offer.
2 years later, I was working at another credit union, and ran into Mr. Used to be Nasty in our branch lobby. The earlier Credit Union program I had considered had crashed an burned. Mr Used to be Nasty had taken a position at another firm a year prior. A firm that I took away over $3,000,000 in business in the prior 3 months.
Under the right set of circumstances, I would consider working with Mr. Used to be Nasty, but no way would work for him.
I hope that was what you were looking for.
If you go back and read, you'll see that in the vast majority of cases that's what I would do. Your guy Joe's situation wouldn't have risen to the level I'm thinking of for a few reasons. Here's what they are:
1) there's a reasonable track record of communication and goodwill between Joe and the BL in the past, so that level of disrespect would be very out of character.
2) Joe's situation in needing to be replaced is the catalyst for all the further efforts on the BLs part, and that puts Joe in a position where complaining isn't really a great look since it's all being done due to Joe's requirements, and
3) if they're using a shared calendar then the BL surely doesn't think he can put one over on Joe or hide the fact that this guy is coming out to rehearse. So clearly he just neglected to say something.
Yep, I might be irritated about that but with the track record between these two I wouldn't be stomping out prematurely and yeah, I would be bringing it up to him.
Now, if Joe and the BL have met fairly recently and just started working together on a project that's maybe months old, then Joe shows up at rehearsal to discover someone else in that chair, it gets a little more dicey, but I'd still talk about it.
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To be fair, most people tend to just read the first sentence or two of any OP and just blindly reply. Maybe 1 TB-er in 4 actually reads subsequent posts by an OP. 1 in 10 if that reply happens past page one.
Which, as you stated is very poor communication.
Which, frankly, is likely the reasoning behind the posts that you're unhappy with. Where a very obviously problematic situation is met with "but did you talk with him and make sure…" Most of the respondents didn't actually read the entire OP, and were replying with a knee jerk response.
There was a thread here a week or two ago titled something like "Would you put up with this", where the OP initially painted an incredibly negative picture of a bandleader. Made it sound like the BL was going to force the OP to set his gear up in a way that could damage it. This OP's narrative fell apart when pressed for details. He wasn't in this band. Gear in question was owned by the BL who gigged very regularly and set it up in an conscientious but non-standard manner routinely. Probably for space reasons.
Despite that, 10 pages in you had people replying with "NO" or "My gear my rules".
It's a bummer. We can do better. If we don't improve the quality of our discourse, then what's the point of any of us replying to begin with.
Okay okay.
On Sunday, a guy I'm in a band with wrote a text to another member of the band, with my name in the text, with content and tone that was condescending and disrespectful to me on a personal level and a musical level.
He accidentally sent the text to me instead of the other band member.
We talked it out, inasmuch as I said, "You just found my boundary - I'm out. Find another bass player."
I'm not waiting around to find out if he changes. The conversation worked things out in that I ended the musical relationship definitively, and with regards to the friendship, left it at "time will tell."
I wasn't going to share, because we didn't work it out and continue working with one another, but we did work it out and part ways without ambiguity.
The issue with the TB Complaints Department is that it is usually a one-sided story, like listening in to one side of a telephone conversation. .......We also dont know the competency level of any TB member posting the complaint. Live playing and studio playing are two completely different animals
This is true, but in this situation I would expect to, at the very least, be told that someone's going to go in and do the studio work on my behalf - especially since I was originally asked to do it and schedules just didn't line up. So what changed?
And then discovering that the work was poorly done, and not at all what was developed by the original players, sort of leads one to conclude that the work he did wasn't valued at all, and he'll be asked to change his parts to match what's now on the record when he plays it live. Why wouldn't you assume that? I'm assuming they'll want to play the original music as it's been recorded now.
We always run the risk here of having info left out by the OP, but I think if we're going to advise we should be advising in good faith that the OPs version of things bears some resemblance to reality, otherwise there's really no good advice to be given, ever. And in this particular case there are so many red flags of clear disrespect that I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which this works out well for the OP if he tries to make it work out at all. Unless, of course, the OP doesn't mind being shut out of the creative process entirely and acting as a hired gun. In that case, he should be getting paid.
For better or worse, if I deem someone treats me poorly, it usually doesn't reach the 'talk it over' stage.
Theres usually too many dynamics involved. There could be many "could bes" such as an Anal BL/Songwriter/Producer has a sound in his head and wants to hear it that way (one of the reasons I record all instruments on much of my own originals lol). It still boils down to not enough data and it happens all the time on TB. For example, an OP may start a thread and the Post says "Ive been playing for two years and am about to join my first band. What are must have pedals?". Answers come back such as "A Compressor and a Good Distortion" (along with a few "You dont need pedals" and "Jaco only needed 4 Strings" comments)..... Whats the problem? Not enough data: the OP neglected to mention the sound he/she is looking for and the responders are assuming its a rock band. The OP might be looking for Marcus Miller's trademark 80s transparency and nine people recommended distortion pedals. Bottomine: not enough data...and not enough data is usually an attribute of almost every Complaints Department post which is why I generally avoid them
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Well, I agree in general. But here's a question: What conversational twist could account for the fact that the BL failed to use the parts that were written by the OP and his other player, that does not simultaneously dismiss the creative offerings of those two players?
I can't imagine a conversation they might have that would take that into account while also conveying to the OP somehow that his creative input is still valued. Can you? To me it seems we already have enough information to conclude that the OPs input had no value to this BL, which cuts to the heart of the matter here. The BLs behavior and decisions tell us this, and it doesn't really matter why. The OP was led to believe he'd be a part of the creative process, and that is not how it went down, so now he needs to decide what to do next.
I don't need to do a DNA test in order to confirm that my dog is, in fact, a dog. Some things are clear on the surface without additional info.
So how does he explain it to everyone's satisfaction?
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Thats the issue: I cant crawl inside someone elses head and know what they are thinking. The actual answer would come from that BL who can fill-in the other side of that one-sided telephone conversation. Its possible the bassist in question wasnt competent. Its also possible he is competent but not getting what the anal BL wants....but for us on the receiving end of the Complaints Department, we really dont have enough information. The best we can do is be supportive of the OP........also, I know youve been around the musical block so I dont have to tell you that BLs come in all types of assorted shapes and packages. If I was in an original band that the BL decided to take creative control of everything, I would just start packing my stuff and move on - thats not the type of BL or original project I would want to be a part of...but thats just me
Right, and again I agree with you, but I guess what I'm getting at is that none of that matters because the OP needs to make a decision about what to do based on what has transpired.
Maybe if the BL sits the OP down and says, "look, I just wasn't happy with your contributions because of xyz" that could be useful to the OP, but it could also lead to needless distress, as it's quite true that BLs (and opinions from everyone) come in a wide variety, and many of them have questionable credentials, as far as I'm concerned. So I suppose there's an outside chance that something positive could come from this, but even you're saying that you'd bail from this scenario. I would too. I think that's the bottom line here.
I dont know this OP, and I feel for this OP; its hard to pour your heart into something just to have it crushed...but thats the nature of arts: You open your soul and there always a chance that somebody is going to stick their big foot in it.,,there is a positive though: it is certainly a learning experience if the OP has never dealt with this personality type.
Agreed on all counts. And most of us have learned these things the hard way, unfortunately.
My advice to "talk it out" is only for when the person is worth it and the relationship is salvageable. That BL that went into the studio without the band probably should have told everyone what he was up to. Instead, he showed his true colors (or inexperience) by recording on his own. Only those bandmates could answer if it would be worth trying to salvage anything.
