Times when it went differently

[Bunk McNulty]

Speaking of communication, you guys aren't communicating well on this at all. Let's back up. I'm talking about situations where mistreatment, dismissal, or outright contempt is clearly occurring, not situations where there's an opportunity to misinterpret or someone's merely having a lousy day.

I would really like your specific examples of this happening and you clearing it up through dialog. No lectures about how most responsible adults do adulting through effective communication; we all know this already.

Short answer: NO. This is not a matter of getting someone to see your side of the story, or you understanding theirs. Nobody's mind is going to be changed. It hasn't happened to me often, but there are some people I know, if I walk into a room and they are there, I don't say anything. I turn around and walk back out.

 

[pepj]

Whether I'll even want to discuss it depends how much regard I have.

My people judgement is something I trust, but I'm supportive and convivial in the first instance.
If people abuse that, then I wouldn't feel it worth rescuing and its downhill until something breaks.

 

[Koshchei]

I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.

But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:

OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.

TB: You should talk to him/her.

I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

Sorry, I can't restore your faith in humanity. Actions speak louder than words.

The best I can offer you is that sometimes motivations determine how to interpret the action, in which case, communication is the only way of getting to the bottom of it.

 

[lermgalieu]

I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.

But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:

OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.

TB: You should talk to him/her.

I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

It comes back to the definition of disrespect (as you allude to). I find it very very rare that these examples have anything to do with intentional, deliberate, conscious mistreatment. I think the overwhelming number of cases would be helped by communication, or at least communication should be tried. If, however, this is being done intentionally, of course communication is not likely to improve things. In some cases, however, you won't know which it is unless you actually talk to the person about it. Equally true is that things can escalate, and if you didn't make an attempt to communicate when it was just a pesky mosquito of a problem, it may not be solvable, but you are also partially at fault.

I think many musicians are extra bad at communication, and this often fosters and inflates problems as they fester.

Similarly, many of US (cuz this is me) are different cats, and have some built-in issues (I am mildly autistic). This can produce ways of communicating and acting that can be abrasive to others who don't get it.

 

[darwin-bass]

I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.

But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:

OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.

TB: You should talk to him/her.

I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

My experiences have been that patterns of mistreatment tend to return even after a conversation. Not always. Sometimes a person is totally unaware and the conversation can bring understanding and change. But often, it brings a temporary adjustment and we slide back into our original natural behaviors.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I think thie point is more talk to them, confront them instead of going some passive-aggressive route.

 

[g-dude]

Sometimes the person could actually have a mental illness that either is untreated, or where they are still working on getting the meds to work right.

It doesn't mean you don't hold them accountable, but it does certainly suggest that some grace and understanding is called for as they work to get back to their normal self.

I've had experiences where a good friend and I were ready to get into a fist fight because his meds weren't working and a situation spiraled out of control - and there were a lot of other bad situations.

That was over 25 years ago, and we're still friends.

If someone is bipolar, like my friend was (technically "is", but he's doing well on his meds), they're often going to say or think things that they aren't willingly choosing. For example, my friend was totally infatuated with another friend until he was diagnosed and put on meds, and then had a, "Whoa! What the heck was I thinking?" experience afterwards.

As I sit and watch a certain rapper and fashion designer who I won't name say some truly horrific and reprehensible stuff, I can't help but wonder if he simply has nobody in his life who can persuade him to get treated for the bipolar disorder that he has publicly admitted to having. While it's possible that he really believes what he is saying, there's also a good chance that he is currently manic and having some sort of severe paranoia/persecution complex. Either way, he's causing a ton of harm to himself, and potentially to others given how much of a platform he has - and we're talking about the safety of innocent people at a time where it doesn't take much to influence people in a horrible way.

Meanwhile, it feels like the media loves it when someone isn't getting the mental health treatment that they need, because it increases the odds that they'll say or do something outrageous, and that's good for the clicks/views that drive ad revenue. It has an air of exploitation to it, where they condemn with one breath while silently praying that there'll be more content coming their way. I've never liked the fact that tragedy increases media profits, and I would love to see an outlet that gives their "excess" revenue in certain situations to organizations that help people.

 

[Turnaround]

What is to be gained by not communicating? You will not find common ground, you may never find the real agenda, you forfeit any chance of resolving an issue, if there indeed is one.

Bandmate: I thought you didn't want to didn't want to do live performances - it's what I live for.
Me: No I think I didn't make myself clear. I enjoy our rehearsals even more than performances. I still love doing performances. I just get such a high in rehearsal when we find that sweet spot in a song for the first time.
Bandmate: Oh, I misunderstood. I wanted to find another bass player because I thought you didn't want to perform. No problems then.

THat is almost verbatim of what happened to me about 20 years ago. We're still very happily together in the band now. It wouldn't have happened if I didn't take the initiative to communicate with a band mate that seemed to be PO'd.

 

[JRA]

@LBS-bass, advising folks to communicate with their 'sources'/principals (especially when there are differences/disputes) is rational and prudent in the real world. i don't understand why it's any less significant online.

edit: i'm not suggesting that leaving a toxic experience always requires words.

 

[Hambone70]

At this point, I have very little faith in humanity. Watch the news. Read the idiocracy and hatred that permeates YouTube and Facebook comments, for example.

I'm getting more and more satisfied with my own company. Sad.

 

[DanDBassist]

I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.

But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:

OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.

TB: You should talk to him/her.

I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

I've been playing bass in bands since the mid 1960's and have been highly regarded in every situation. I believe in playing for the music and will listen very closely to other's parts in order to make it work musically. BUT, there was one time after a recording session of original country/folk/rock with a longtime fellow band mate where he (guitarist/singer/"composer") personally replaced my bass parts with what he thought they should be. Never talked to me about it and I found out from the longtime fellow drummer bandmate about it. I will never play in any project/situation again with him and have no social interaction with him either.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

Yikes.

 

[Topkat13]

It ain't them x 3.

 

[g-dude]

At this point, I have very little faith in humanity. Watch the news. Read the idiocracy and hatred that permeates YouTube and Facebook comments, for example.

I'm getting more and more satisfied with my own company. Sad.

Two things:

1) Remember that your media consumption is not reflective of the vast majority of people in the world. Especially the folks you disagree with on any given topic.

2) Whenever you find yourself slipping into a place where you think everyone is horrible, just remember that if everyone you meet is a jerk, there's a real danger that you're the jerk. Not saying you are, but having a "everyone is horrible except me" attitude never works out for people, and is the sort of thing that leads to being featured on news reports where they use your full name, including your middle one, when referring to you.

If you want to restore your faith in humanity, go do something nice for someone else without expecting anything in return. Keep repeating until your faith is restored.

 

[chazolson]

In the world of music I've only had two differences of opinion that caused all musical progress to stop dead in its tracks (and led directly to my leaving).

One was when I produced demo clips for my band. For one song I added a rhythm guitar part missing from our demo performance and man, you would have thought I defaced the Mona Lisa- at least according to the keyboard player. I quit. A year later we made nice, but we're still not playing together.

The other was when the BL of another band loaded up the set list for a very important gig with novelty tunes (Wipeout, Tequila, etc.). I said, if I had known you'd be calling this stuff, I wouldn't have joined your band. He said, well, you'll have lotsa time to learn other tunes, because you're fired.

in every other situation, I have played with people who didn't let the unimportant stuff get in the way. Differences of opinion about music are OK, even heated ones, because who wants to play with people who don't give a poopie?

I have worked with people who believe those who get fired up about stuff are mad. I'm not mad. I'm passionate. If you can't tell the difference, we won't get along.

 

[rtslinger]

Okay my 2 cents Band = partnership as does marriage as long as you aren't the hired help.
If the communication is not being done in either of the two first situations or actions = you on the outside looking in.
You have two options find out why this is happening (communicate) or walk away the choice is yours to make.
I personally would want peace of mind, I'm not perfect, maybe I caused the breakup without being aware of it and why my choice would be to communicate. Good luck RTS

 

[Dust2Dust]

mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.)

Make sure you're not between me and the door when that happens

 

[Keyser Soze]

People will show you who they are. Believe them.

 

[crazyBassClown]

What prompted me to write this was a post here about someone who's BL cut him and another player out of the creative process entirely, recording the original music they'd been developing on his own while discarding the work the others had already developed in favor of different arrangements offered by someone at the recording studio.

What about that situation would prompt someone to assume a misunderstanding has possibly occurred? To me that's sending about as clear a message to the two disregarded players as is possible - you aren't important to the creative process, and what you're going to be doing should you remain in this band is going to be whatever it is I'm developing on my own.

What most likely happened is the studio owner convinced said individual this was the best way to go to maximize the amount of money that could be made by himself in this transaction rather than the BL going in with intent to replace everything.
Whether this is a misunderstanding or not, or complete disrespect or not, or the fact the BL went without everyone else is disrespect fullstop is something that everyone will have to decide for themselves.

 

[51PRI]

People will show you who they are. Believe them.

I was gonna say that. Oh, wait, somebody did:

... People quite often will show you exactly who they are by their actions. Do yourself a favor and believe them....

I've never had things " get patched up " through conversations....

I have to admit that I haven't, either. Just thinking about that makes me want to reassess a lot of things. Thanks @LDSBass for this thread.

I think thie point is more talk to them, confront them instead of going some passive-aggressive route.

Out BL didn't like the guitar player's text about the fact that playing requests that we don't know is hurting us, and our reputation, and our bookings, so he (BL) is now being passive-aggressive by not calling songs onstage. He just stands there between songs till one of us calls a song. Pretty childish.

I've been playing bass in bands since the mid 1960's and have been highly regarded in every situation. I believe in playing for the music and will listen very closely to other's parts in order to make it work musically. BUT, there was one time after a recording session of original country/folk/rock with a longtime fellow band mate where he (guitarist/singer/"composer") personally replaced my bass parts with what he thought they should be. Never talked to me about it and I found out from the longtime fellow drummer bandmate about it. I will never play in any project/situation again with him and have no social interaction with him either.

I was once in a band/songwriting situation. Three of us got identical 4 track cassette records and wrote and passed around tapes. The singer would write lyrics and melodies to fully completed music provided by myself or the other guy. When the songs were copywrighted, though, only ONE name was listed as songwriter. Talking about it did no good. We no longer have any relationship with that person.