Times when it went differently

[brianrost]

I'll just throw in the suggestion that it may be hard to perceive what is actually disrespect without talking to the other person(s).

I've been in a lot of situations people might call disrespect. More than once I have been passed over in favor of another player when a band reformed after a long hiatus. I was asked to play DB on a few tracks of an album only to be told that the big name producer (he had worked with both Bob Dylan and Carly Simon) insisted only bass guitar would be used. I had my parts wiped from a recording and replaced by another player, only finding out when the CD was released.

I never took any of it personally. I was disappointed, sure, but I didn't feel I wasn't respected. I just wasn't the right player at the time.

 

[crazyBassClown]

f we don't improve the quality of our discourse, then what's the point of any of us replying to begin with.

The curse of social media, a billion people talking and noone listening.

 

[crazyBassClown]

What conversational twist could account for the fact that the BL failed to use the parts that were written by the OP and his other player, that does not simultaneously dismiss the creative offerings of those two players?

The studio owner saying he could record parts for the songs but doesn't know the parts that the band had written and the BL couldn't play them as the band wrote them.

edit: and this is most likely exactly what happened as the studio guy milked BL for all the money he had IMHO

 

[dbsfgyd1]

To be fair, most people tend to just read the first sentence or two of any OP and just blindly reply. Maybe 1 TB-er in 4 actually reads subsequent posts by an OP. 1 in 10 if that reply happens past page one.

Which, as you stated is very poor communication.

Which, frankly, is likely the reasoning behind the posts that you're unhappy with. Where a very obviously problematic situation is met with "but did you talk with him and make sure…" Most of the respondents didn't actually read the entire OP, and were replying with a knee jerk response.

There was a thread here a week or two ago titled something like "Would you put up with this", where the OP initially painted an incredibly negative picture of a bandleader. Made it sound like the BL was going to force the OP to set his gear up in a way that could damage it. This OP's narrative fell apart when pressed for details. He wasn't in this band. Gear in question was owned by the BL who gigged very regularly and set it up in an conscientious but non-standard manner routinely. Probably for space reasons.

Despite that, 10 pages in you had people replying with "NO" or "My gear my rules".

It's a bummer. We can do better. If we don't improve the quality of our discourse, then what's the point of any of us replying to begin with.

Guilty as charged your Honor! Good post, and taken to heart.

 

[2tonic]

My approach has always been "I believe 10% of what you say, and 90% of what you do. That will never change, unless I start believing 0% of what you say."

 

[PhatBottomBass1]

WOW...

I guess that the players I've played with have been reasonably well adjusted, overall. I just don't put myself into wild situations and never date crazy women.

I think of a couple of d*ck moves, by a couple of players, have been self regulated and had enough self awareness to make an apology before festering.

When it comes to recording, IMHO/IME, the budget dictates who is doing what, why, when, where and how. I've never been the primary composer/writer and always expect that I will be working with/for someone else in those situations.

No crazy sh*t in the control room.

 

[retslock]

I am of the belief that effective relationships are the product of effective communication, and that when we don't communicate effectively, bad relationships are more likely to occur. Yes, there are people who are two-faced and will say one thing and do another. The road to hell is paved with inappropriate expectations. When what I expect is not based on a mutual agreement before the fact, a bad outcome is more likely. When agreements are reached and someone else violates our agreement, it's on them.

As a species we have at our disposal such an emphatic, articulated and highly specific means of communicating with language except that we suck at using it so often. I would also suggest assumptions are liberally littered along that road to hell. Social media has given this misguided blunder a new trough to wallow in. It is rife on the internet.

 

[Jogobass]

People show you clearly who they are through their actions, but we all know that talk is cheap (or it can be).

I don't agree. Actions only show so much. What a person thinks, his intentions, should be known before judging.
If there is no communication you only have your own guesses to rely on and they might be wrong.

Half a year ago I was dismissed by a bandleader who claimed I was lying and manipulating him. He had told me about being mistreated by a narcissist in the past. Without properly healing from that situation he started to look into getting a band together. His trust was hurt in the past and from his actions toward me I can only conclude that he was looking for deception in any person, even when I knew it was clearly not there. I tried to mend the situation but he had firmly set his mind on not trusting me anymore.

I can only hope he keeps his twisted opinion about me to himself, but he has shown that he can talk trash about others behind their back.

 

[Jazz Ad]

I won't leave a scene without making sure all parties involved understand my point of view.
It doesn't mean we have to agree, it's just a way not to cut bridges uselessly.
It often means talking to people even if you don't really want to anymore.

 

[el murdoque]

But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

I have not had the experience of getting together and talking it out helped to nurse a case of being grossly (and intentionally!) mistreated back to a healthy relationship. I've seen it patch a situation like "Okay, we got three more gigs we have to get through, that's two more rehearsals. You are grown ups. You can make it work five more times, then you can go separate ways."

But.

I am a good moderator. I can often spot immediately when person 1 says A and person 2 understands B.
It happens a lot. Mostly harmless, but sometimes this leads to misunderstandings that build the foundation for more misunderstandings, which lead to shouting at each other.

I have, more than once, witnessed person 1 doing something without malicious intent. Without any intent, actually, but that had person 2 on edge because they thought it was directed at them. Person 1 was unaware of this. Now the situation is loaded and cocked, but person 1 has no clue about it -- and does or says something else, which person 2, now very aware and very sensitive to anything person 1 says or does, interprets as directed at them, which leads to further imbalance.
Do that for an entire evening and person 2 goes home thinking person 1 is an <insert healthy swearword of choice here>.
This is a situation that can be easily remedied by talking to them and resolving it, IF and only IF both people are big enough persons to admit they did something that should not be repeated in an identical way in the future.

I've resolved situations like this more than once.

People tend to have their antennae up, searching for anything that could be interpreted as directed at them once they are on edge, and they don't use logic or empathy then, they just fuel their rage and they often act like they want to misinterpret what comes across from the other person in the worst possible way.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Remember, when we get an OP, we only get one side of the story. Perhaps they missed a communication, perhaps they are leaving something out (intentionally or otherwise).

If someone came to me with a problem with their job, I certainly would advise them to talk with their supervisor before they just quit.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I've had some very positive experiences communicating when things went south. It didn't save the band, but made for good friendships and bridges remaining in tact. I've also learned lots.

My most recent experience with that was in a Zep tribute. Banged heads bigtime with the BL. We no longer play together, but we're good friends. And we learned how important it is to be on the same page regarding goals in a band.

 

[Scarysharkface]

I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.

But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:

OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.

TB: You should talk to him/her.

I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

I used to work as a photographer with a TV sports anchor who constantly talked about how he'd love to bang my wife. It was incredible and I couldn't figure out how to make him realize how offensive he was. Finally I asked if this meant I could talk about how I'd love to bang his wife. He gave me the total deer-in-headlights look, but he never made another comment about my wife. I've actually had to have that conversation with a couple of people since then, and turning it around like that has been exceptionally effective.

John

 

[turf3]

Personally? No, personally I've not had the experience either of doing something myself that got me crossways with someone else, or having someone do something to me ditto, and then being able to apply all those well-documented psychological techniques to fix the problem. I can remember a couple times my wife (who's more psychologically aware and skilled) was able to do this.

I think once person A and person B are at odds, it takes some real skill to put them back together again. You can come up with a modus vivendi, but that's just a fancy way of saying "yeah, we can't stand each other but we'll grit our teeth and deal with it in order to achieve this shared goal."

 

[lermgalieu]

This is great. I mean, the experience sounds somewhat horrible, but what a great example of karmic retribution. Sorry you had to go through that. I think you handled it well.

 

[BadSanta1281]

Actions only show so much. What a person thinks, his intentions, should be known before judging.
If there is no communication you only have your own guesses to rely on and they might be wrong.

Agreed.

I managed a large crew of car salespeople. Not a band, but commission salespeople are a very ego-driven bunch. There was constantly perceptions of disrespect and "they stole my deal" type of situations.

I would always force a sit-down confrontation in my office whenever this kind of stuff came up. Most times, once both sides told their story and heard the other person's story, things worked out amicably.

Sometimes what is taken as disrespect turns out to be just poor decision making without any malice.

 

[bdplaid]

I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.

But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:

OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.

TB: You should talk to him/her.

I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

I can't give you an example of change. Actually the opposite.

I sang lead in a couple of bands back in the day. I know theory. So it came as a surprise when I was condescended to by a singer in a band who clearly didn't know what I knew about how vocals work. He was a band leader and keyboard player himself, and I was astonished at the vocal parts he began handing out. All wrong.

I was pretty upset as it was a gig that was important to me. I made my objections known to the band leader and contacted the singer to get a beer somewhere and talk it out. Nope, he declined. And continued the condescension but in a more passive-aggressive way.

I eventually left the band for that and other reasons. But he is and will remain on my permanent sh!!t list.

 

[LBS-bass]

I don't agree. Actions only show so much. What a person thinks, his intentions, should be known before judging.
If there is no communication you only have your own guesses to rely on and they might be wrong.

Half a year ago I was dismissed by a bandleader who claimed I was lying and manipulating him. He had told me about being mistreated by a narcissist in the past. Without properly healing from that situation he started to look into getting a band together. His trust was hurt in the past and from his actions toward me I can only conclude that he was looking for deception in any person, even when I knew it was clearly not there. I tried to mend the situation but he had firmly set his mind on not trusting me anymore.

I can only hope he keeps his twisted opinion about me to himself, but he has shown that he can talk trash about others behind their back.

This has happened to me as well, but I think you just made my case here. His actions (dismissal) gave you every bit of information necessary to conclude that he was not thinking clearly or rational about you or the situation. Same thing happened to me. I worked for a guy who suddenly went paranoid about myself and another band member, started demanding that we stand where he could always see us so we couldn't ridicule him onstage (we'd never done that) etc.

I didn't need a conversation with him to know that he was no longer thinking clearly and that there was absolutely no point to attempting to straighten that out with him. Where the paranoia came from was beside the point, and I think that's the fallacy a lot of people are jumping to here. It's not necessary to understand all the why. It's the what (the behavior) that influences whether or not I want to continue to work with someone. In this case, it went all the way down to the point where he decided he couldn't work with anyone anymore and broke up the band. To this day, some 30 years later, he primarily does solo shows.

I'll give you another, more extreme example. For several years I worked with someone who was severely bi-polar. We all knew it, some in the band before I joined had seen him at his worst, which included violent behavior that resulted in jail time. He gets back on his meds and out of jail, I end up in this band, and we play for several years. He is promising this time that he'll stay on his meds, that it will never happen again, etc. etc., but during the lockdown he goes off his meds again and shows up at my house behaving irrationally. We're very good friends by this point. But I see the writing on the wall.

He gets back on his meds again this time, lockdown ends, bands begin to get back together but I decide that I'm not going to do this with him any more. Why? Because he's a ticking time bomb who can't keep his promise and sooner or later he's going to implode again and quite possibly take all of us with him. I don't need to understand the way he thinks as a bi-polar person in order to understand what the likely outcome is going to be. I don't need to know what his thinking was that led to him deciding one day to stop taking the medication that was keeping him healthy. I care very much about that guy to this day, but I can't hitch my wagon to a runaway train. His behavior is the indicator that shows me what I need to do here.

Sometimes things just are what they are. A deeper level of understanding isn't needed in order to know that you avoid touching a hot stove.

 

[LBS-bass]

Sometimes what is taken as disrespect turns out to be just poor decision making without any malice.

Interesting story, and I agree with this, but here's a situation I experienced and I'll ask you what you think about it.

I was working in a big music store and Korg had just released their Triton keyboard. Everyone wanted one. My store got their first shipment, and I called the customers on my list and got a downpayment to put one on layaway for a guy. The others sold out quickly and I was just waiting for my guy to come in and pay off the balance. We had no idea when the next shipment would come in; they could not keep up with demand.

In the meantime, another salesman sees my sale in the layaway room and decides to reverse my paperwork and sell it to someone else.

This is a very experienced salesperson; he knows right from wrong. I wouldn't say this is malicious, just greedy. I spoke to the store manager over it and the manager gave me a wishy-washy song and dance of some sort, so I gave notice after five years of working there. I'm not going to continue to work as someone's doormat.

The key points here are that the person who reversed my sale was relatively new at our store, but a known quantity as he'd been in sales for years at a competitor. He had a reputation for being underhanded, but our manager hired him, anyway. I knew to expect more of the same.

The other key point was that the manager decided it wasn't worth it to have my back on this situation which went against the rules he'd put into place.

What conversation was I supposed to have with that salesman that would have caused me to feel my work would be respected by him from that point on?

 

[mambo4]

@LBS-bass Great thread. This is the only thread in the Band forum for which I have read every single post. Real life examples of people trying to talk it out , successful or not, can provide some good wisdom.

I'm talking about situations where mistreatment, dismissal, or outright contempt is clearly occurring, not situations where there's an opportunity to misinterpret

Well, almost by definition, that's a situation past 'talking it out'. When clearly communicate boundaries are persistently crossed, it's time for walking not talking.

But in most what would you do? threads, 'clearly communicate boundaries' are not indicated by the OP. What I have seen most often is: ignorance of the offender, combined with assumptions of the offended, leading to a belief that there is deliberate disrespect happening.

My personal experience was being accused of "mistreatment, dismissal, or outright contempt" by not only a band mate but a dear friend. Multiple times over several years we 'talked it out' and I came away feeling like things were resolved, only to have it flare up again in a few months. After stepping back, taking inventory of my behavior, and concluding I had done my good faith best to sort it out, I chose to cut them out of my life. I'm sure my own actions must have contributed, and I am equally sure that they suffered an undiagnosed condition. I feel I did the best I could with my emotional intelligence (or lack thereof) at the time. All this through the faulty-human-memory-fog of decades.

Personally, I must be stupid, thick skinned, or lucky, because I have never been in a situation where I felt unfairly disrespected in some deliberate way (aside from the above anecdote). At least not in any situations worth caring about.
These days I maintain a habit of asking is this worth it? If I start to feel upset or argumentative. Usually the answer is no. Its amazing how quickly negative feelings will fade if you can let them go.