Times when it went differently

[LBS-bass]

I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.

But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:

OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.

TB: You should talk to him/her.

I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

 

[ArtechnikA]

Just a couple of points for clarification...

IMO, the purpose of the 'conversation' is not to effect a change in personality or behaviour, but to make sure that you correctly perceived the situation.
Maybe you mis-interpreted some action or turn of phrase. Everybody brings a certain set of past experiences to an interaction and they will probably color your perception to some extent. It's not right to jump ahead to a conclusion if there's a chance you mis-read the situation.

Then, I'm doubtful that any substantial change is personality can be effected in adults. But in many cases, it doesn't matter. I probably can't change how someone respects me, but if they want my participation, they need to act like they respect me. IOW -- you can hold whatever opinion you want, as long as it does not actually influence or affect your interactions with me. This is standard in any professional setting. I can't control how you think or feel inside, but as long as I'm in charge, you need to act as if you're able to perform professionally. If you can, we'll get along just fine. I don't care if t's an act, as long as it is a sufficiently convincing act.

There's a blurry area here, involving band members who espouse societally hurtful opinions on their personal social media, but that's a separate subject that has been covered here before...

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

The disrespect was the straw on the camels back that made it easy to pull the trigger and retire.

We had a new asst GM come to work. I had heard that she was great to work with from a couple of friends in the business who had worked where she had previously. To other's even those doing the hiring, she was an unknown other than for her resume. As a result, I was the one saying good things about her before she ever arrived. I was beginning to think about retiring, but thought I'd give her a chance.

It turns out that she was very poor at reading people in real time. She would never commit to anything without first consulting with her crystal ball, horoscope, or computer generated people analyzer... whatever she used. She was very good at telling people what they wanted to hear, but rarely followed through. I came to think of her as being the type who would do well selling used cars at a buy-here-pay-here lot.

We would meet we would discuss, she would even throw other's under the bus while talking to me about them. But sorry, in this case, no change would come from those discussions, only broken promises unfulfilled commitments and backstabbing.

She began to openly show disrespect for the work I did, and did this in front of other staff members. She didn't realize that the work I did not only involved protecting the workplace, but that protection extended to her as well.

Upon giving 90 days notice of my intent to retire, I was immediately relegated to to "unperson" status. I was only required to give two weeks notice, and now wish I had. The only contact she had with me at that point was to try and get my help to find someone to do my job after I was gone.

 

[Deleted member 341607]

I'll have to share a non-band related incident. Semi-retired working at a major retail gas station. Most people are cool and I enjoy it. Fellow comes in, proceeds with operator error problem and yells across the station "your pumps are effin broken!". Calmly approach and let him know they work fine. "Then show me how they effin work!" Uh- no. "Huh?" I tell him he can go elsewhere or apologize to the family next to him (kids). All of this was conveyed calmly but emphatically. He is dumbfounded. He takes a moment, apologizes to the family and I proceed to get him going.

He sheepishly thanks me. I laugh and say quietly (no reason to shame him) I bet you feel like dick now. He laughs. We ended our interaction shaking hands as he tells me what a poopie day he's had.

As he left I looked over at the aforementioned kids who had witnessed all this and winked. Both gave me a thumbs up.

You're welcome.

 

[thewildest]

Being "treated poorly" could fall within a wide variety of cases, where context plays a big role on the recipients interpretation of the situation.

Most upsetting situations often happen due to poor or incomplete communication in the first place. Hence, additional communication to clarify where the parties stand is fundamental, and if that turn things around so facts and actions take the place of emotions and perspectives, is always welcome.

 

[LBS-bass]

IMO, the purpose of the 'conversation' is not to effect a change in personality or behaviour, but to make sure that you correctly perceived the situation.

I understand this and, in instances where this is a possibility, I'd usually want to have that conversation, and especially in a situation where the person has never shown any indication that there's intent to be dismissive in the past.

What prompted me to write this was a post here about someone who's BL cut him and another player out of the creative process entirely, recording the original music they'd been developing on his own while discarding the work the others had already developed in favor of different arrangements offered by someone at the recording studio.

What about that situation would prompt someone to assume a misunderstanding has possibly occurred? To me that's sending about as clear a message to the two disregarded players as is possible - you aren't important to the creative process, and what you're going to be doing should you remain in this band is going to be whatever it is I'm developing on my own.

Yet there are people suggesting this should be talked through, as though that person didn't made a deliberate decision to cut his bandmates out of the creative process in this originals band.

I understanding wanting to communicate within a reasonable framework but I'd be assuming in this case that my contributions aren't needed, because that's what actions communicate. Would I be wrong to assume that?

Having a conversation in this case only serves to provide an opportunity for the person who'd dismissed my contributions to lie about how much he needs/wants me around so that he doesn't have to go through the trouble of looking for new players.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.

But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:

OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.

TB: You should talk to him/her.

I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

I am of the belief that effective relationships are the product of effective communication, and that when we don't communicate effectively, bad relationships are more likely to occur. Yes, there are people who are two-faced and will say one thing and do another. The road to hell is paved with inappropriate expectations. When what I expect is not based on a mutual agreement before the fact, a bad outcome is more likely. When agreements are reached and someone else violates our agreement, it's on them.

 

[LBS-bass]

I'll have to share a non-band related incident. Semi-retired working at a major retail gas station. Most people are cool and I enjoy it. Fellow comes in, proceeds with operator error problem and yells across the station "your pumps are effin broken!". Calmly approach and let him know they work fine. "Then show me how they effin work!" Uh- no. "Huh?" I tell him he can go elsewhere or apologize to the family next to him (kids). All of this was conveyed calmly but emphatically. He is dumbfounded. He takes a moment, apologizes to the family and I proceed to get him going.

He sheepishly thanks me. I laugh and say quietly (no reason to shame him) I bet you feel like dick now. He laughs. We ended our interaction shaking hands as he tells me what a poopie day he's had.

As he left I looked over at the aforementioned kids who had witnessed all this and winked. Both gave me a thumbs up.

You're welcome.

That just seems like somebody having a bad day and venting.

 

[LBS-bass]

Speaking of communication, you guys aren't communicating well on this at all. Let's back up. I'm talking about situations where mistreatment, dismissal, or outright contempt is clearly occurring, not situations where there's an opportunity to misinterpret or someone's merely having a lousy day.

I would really like your specific examples of this happening and you clearing it up through dialog. No lectures about how most responsible adults do adulting through effective communication; we all know this already.

 

[ArtechnikA]

What prompted me to write this was a post here about someone who's BL cut him and another player out of the creative process entirely, recording the original music they'd been developing on his own while discarding the work the others had already developed in favor of different arrangements offered by someone at the recording studio.

What about that situation would prompt someone to assume a misunderstanding has possibly occurred?...

I read a bit of that thread.
I agree the extent of my request for clarification would not have extended past 'What were you thinking?'...

 

[LBS-bass]

I read a bit of that thread.
I agree the extent of my request for clarification would not have extended past 'What were you thinking?'...

Yeah, I guess I'm just baffled by the assumption that we have to bend over and extend courtesy at any cost regardless of the messages people convey through their actions. People show you clearly who they are through their actions, but we all know that talk is cheap (or it can be).

 

[Deleted member 341607]

That just seems like somebody having a bad day and venting.

But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Why I don't usually respond right here.

 

[QweziRider]

But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

Not I. Walking away was the only intelligent choice.

 

[LBS-bass]

Why I don't usually respond right here.

A customer pulling up in a gas station is a pretty impersonal situation but if you feel like it's an example that speaks to what I'm after, then sure. I don't see where anyone had high stakes in that situation, as it was a casual encounter where someone who was angry was calmed down, which isn't exactly what I'm talking about here.

But again, communication. I guess my commentary above didn't correctly communicate that I'm interested in personal situations that are important enough to you that you might feel the need to walk away, like a band or a job or a business opportunity.

People disrespect others all the time in casual ways, online, in restaurants, etc. We normally just keep moving on and don't give those situations much thought.

One thing that is very true is that it's difficult to keep a thread like this on track because the nature of online communication is to go in many different directions.

 

[DirtDog]

First, seek to understand. Then seek to be understood.

 

[Deleted member 341607]

A customer pulling up in a gas station is a pretty impersonal situation but if you feel like it's an example that speaks to what I'm after, then sure. I don't see where anyone had high stakes in that situation, as it was a casual encounter where someone who was angry was calmed down, which isn't exactly what I'm talking about here.

But again, communication. I guess my commentary above didn't correctly communicate that I'm interested in personal situations that are important enough to you that you might feel the need to walk away, like a band or a job or a business opportunity.

People disrespect others all the time in casual ways, online, in restaurants, etc. We normally just keep moving on and don't give those situations much thought.

One thing that is very true is that it's difficult to keep a thread like this on track because the nature of online communication is to go in many different directions.

Agreed. Moving on.

 

[MobileHolmes]

A band is kind of like a marriage (not that I'm an good at that either) and you are going to have to manage disagreements. You have to pick your battles, set your boundaries, and figure out what is a deal breaker and what isn't. I see a lot of posts here where people want to bail on things that are things you can probably work through. But there are plenty of musicians that are jerks, or with substance issues or mental issues or whatever where probably it's best to walk

 

[LBS-bass]

Agreed. Moving on.

I'm sorry you felt disrespected. That was not my intent. I'm actually impressed that you were able to calm the angry customer down and get him to apologize.

 

[voodoobassist]

Perhaps because I'm a grouchy old man, but no. People that treat others poorly rarely "see the light" and amend their ways. I used to try to be extremely flexible in band work situations, not so much anymore. In my experience, no amount of conversations will "fix" a sideways personality trait. In the recording situation you referenced, the guy plainly showed he has no interest in accommodating anyone except himself. People quite often will show you exactly who they are by their actions. Do yourself a favor and believe them. Saves a lot of wasted time and energy.

 

[mcnach]

I'm of the opinion that people show you who they are through their actions, and I tend to make decisions based on observations rather than discussions when actions seem to warrant that.

But I see a lot of advice here that goes something like this:

OP: I was really mistreated (disrespected, deiberately left out of important decision, not informed of important event, etc.) and I think I should leave this situation.

TB: You should talk to him/her.

I agree that adults generally do well when they communicate, even when doing that is difficult. But who here has had the experience of being grossly mistreated and then patching it up through conversation, to the degree that it ended up being a positive and lasting experience overall?

I'm not talking about having to deal with someone who is clueless, but someone who is actively doing things that convey a clear message of disrespect.

Maybe my definition of disrespect is different from most - I know that I'm big on setting boundaries where others perhaps are not. But I'd like to hear of real examples where someone treated you poorly, you talked it over, and that person made a real change.

Yes, I'm asking TB to restore my faith in humanity

When somebody shows disrespect on purpose, there's usually nothing to do [1]. However sometimes people do things without really thinking how they're perceived, so I would try to make sure which it is first. When it's out of ignorance, a talk can work. If I like the environment (band, whatever) I'd try to have a chat. Even if it doesn't work out, it's good practice and being seen as a person who would try to fix things and dialogue is not a bad thing, especially in the field of music where a LOT of work can come your way (or not) purely through reputation.

[1] Apart from the usual: kidnap him/her in the middle of the night, take them out to the woods/desert/sea and dispose of the body in an appropriate manner. But after the first five or six times it gets a bit tiring and there's often a lot to clean... Nah, not worth it, although fantasizing about it can be a nice stress reliever

edit: It often requires to leave our pride at home in a box, locked. Which, again, in my opinion it's a good thing. I used to be a bit of a hothead, but I'm a lot happier since I mellowed down a bit. I realised that there's only a few people that I *really* care what they think of me as a person, and those already know me. The rest... don't matter as much, so I'd rather be pragmatic and do what gets me where I want to be.