Trying to resolve low string tension feel

[Bruce Johnson]

I've written quite a bit about the whole subject of how the structural stiffness of the bass's frame (neck, neck/body joint, body, hardware) can affect the sound and the feel on the strings. It's complicated.

There's an engineering part in how the flexing of the frame changes the sound on the string, but there's also a psychological side.

When you find a bass where the low string seems loose and floppy, often part of the reason is because you can't hear it. The fundamental of that B or E is hidden under a general low-mid mush. Turning up the Bass knob makes the mush louder, but you still can't hear the fundamental any better. Because of that, you instinctively pluck the string harder. Which makes it buzzy and floppy.

Now you pick up another bass, same size, same strings, and it has less low-mid mush and strong clear deep fundamentals. Now you pluck the low string the same as the others, and it sounds and feels great. What's different?

The difference is the clarity of the deep bottom end. If you can hear the low fundamentals clearly, then you don't get frustrated and abuse the string. Building a bass that has excellent clarity of the deep bottom end is a combination of the design of the structure and the right design pickup to go with it. Changing pickups or switching to higher tension strings are partial patches, but aren't the real fix.

Here's a thread where we go into this subject in more detail:

Thread 'Construction Techniques for tone and feel'

Sep 5, 2024

I'm curious about high level differences in construction techniques that can be implemented to tailor a build towards a certain tonal goal. I'm not starting a tOnEwOoD debate. I'm talking about factors like neck construction (vis-a-vis neck stiffness), different types of neck/body joints or neck-through, headstock angle, bridge type/construction, and sure perhaps high-level wood specifications such as hard/soft, dense/light, etc.

Is it generally known how these factors can contribute to the overall tone and feel of a completed instrument?

For example... imagine a build order for two...

• NKBassman
• Replies: 15
• Forum: Luthier's Corner

• 

 

[E.J. T.N.T.]

If the nut slots are angle cut to the path of the tuning posts, there shouldn't be an issue. And if it were an issue (and it shouldn't be) fretted notes would not be related to the break angle and fretted notes should not have a low tension feel.

I can see a low tension feel when your bass is down tuned.

Use different strings with a some stronger tension. Put a bit of bow to the truss rod. Raise the action a bit.

The photo shows mixed strings, different colored silk. ???? Maybe an issue? I don't know.

As I mentioned above, I have tried all the things described. The only thing that made a noticeable difference was using thicker strings.

The Strings from the picture are from the same set. The silk ends are color coded for each string and it matches their ball end. A fun touch from Rotosound.

 

[E.J. T.N.T.]

Stringing through the body will not increase the stiffness feel of the strings. It will have the opposite effect because of the added length of string - there's more string to stretch. Stretchiness is the opposite of stiffness.

You cannot give the string more tension without raising the pitch. Changing the break angle of the string at the nut or the bridge will not increase tension, they increase downforce on the nut and bridge respectively with absolutely no change to tension. the vibrating length of the string remains unchanged. Your options to achieve more tension are limited to a change of string to one that is stiffer as a consequence of gauge or materials.

For more info, check this thread:

Thread 'String Tension and Compliance'

Sep 14, 2020

Some time ago I did a study on string tension to try to prove or disprove the claims being made about various schemes to improve string tension on basses. Conventional wisdom says that any increase in tension on a given string will raise its frequency of vibration, raising its pitch. We know that since we increase tension on a string by turning the tuner so that it stretches the string more. And it is largely understood that increasing the mass of a string (heavier gauge) will require more tension to bring it to pitch than a similar string of lighter gauge. And we also know that if we...

• Turnaround
• Replies: 24
• Forum: Pro Bench

• 

Oooooh, I remember reading this thread when it was published. I completely agree that the semantics get mixed up considerably on the topic. I guess what I am trying to achieve is getting some extra "snap" from the strings.

This actually brings a very good point though and that would be the position of the tuners. As the neck was hand carved there is a possibility that the tuners are closer to the nut than on my benchmark instrument. An aspect definitely worth investigating.

 

[E.J. T.N.T.]

I've written quite a bit about the whole subject of how the structural stiffness of the bass's frame (neck, neck/body joint, body, hardware) can affect the sound and the feel on the strings. It's complicated.

There's an engineering part in how the flexing of the frame changes the sound on the string, but there's also a psychological side.

When you find a bass where the low string seems loose and floppy, often part of the reason is because you can't hear it. The fundamental of that B or E is hidden under a general low-mid mush. Turning up the Bass knob makes the mush louder, but you still can't hear the fundamental any better. Because of that, you instinctively pluck the string harder. Which makes it buzzy and floppy.

Now you pick up another bass, same size, same strings, and it has less low-mid mush and strong clear deep fundamentals. Now you pluck the low string the same as the others, and it sounds and feels great. What's different?

The difference is the clarity of the deep bottom end. If you can hear the low fundamentals clearly, then you don't get frustrated and abuse the string. Building a bass that has excellent clarity of the deep bottom end is a combination of the design of the structure and the right design pickup to go with it. Changing pickups or switching to higher tension strings are partial patches, but aren't the real fix.

Here's a thread where we go into this subject in more detail:

Thread 'Construction Techniques for tone and feel'

Sep 5, 2024

I'm curious about high level differences in construction techniques that can be implemented to tailor a build towards a certain tonal goal. I'm not starting a tOnEwOoD debate. I'm talking about factors like neck construction (vis-a-vis neck stiffness), different types of neck/body joints or neck-through, headstock angle, bridge type/construction, and sure perhaps high-level wood specifications such as hard/soft, dense/light, etc.

Is it generally known how these factors can contribute to the overall tone and feel of a completed instrument?

For example... imagine a build order for two...

• NKBassman
• Replies: 15
• Forum: Luthier's Corner

• 

Thank you so much for this. Your input on the linked thread and also on the thread linked by @Turnaround is exactly what I was looking for.

The difference between the two instruments is actually not very big but still considerably apparent, especially when using lower tunings.

I guess I would ideally like to add some more stiffness to the overall system of the custom bass. What would you say would be the easiest/less invasive way/lowest effort way to go about this? I somehow feel that neck inserts + screws would be the easiest thing to try.

Obviously, I can understand this is probably a hard question to answer without actually getting the instruments in your hands.

 

[OnlyFlats]

3 points to add:

- Have you used a string tension calculator when deciding what strings to use?

I'm from the metal scene where we low tune. Using string tension calculators helps select strings that will be close to your target tension, but most importantly be relatively even from string to string. You will notice 'my string tension seems a little off' if it's varied between the strings (assuming you're not swapping from instrument to instrument often). It triggers your brain to notice it when you shift playing across different strings.

Warning: you'll notice off the shelf string sets don't often provide even tension per string. Some of us use multiple packs to make a hybrid set.

- tuning commitment - no more hipshot drop tuners. I have never seen these in any serious metal heads quiver of instruments. We commit an instrument to a specific tuning (and specific string type and set) and stick to it. Then keep the instrument setup for that tuning.

- shift your plucking position. You can skip all the above and just focus on this if you need to escape the rabbit hole. On the lower tension instrument, play closer to the bridge. You'll be able to manually adjust your perception of the string tension by slightly adjusting where you pluck/pick.

Use non permanent mods to keep your hand in that new sweet spot. I use self adhesive furniture bumpers as thumb rests. For pick playing, some strips of electrical tape on the bout to rest my forearm on and remind me to keep it there.


I went very deep into low tunings and have a custom multiscale bass (think Dingwall style) but have landed back in the land of the standard 34" scale neck for BEAD (ie 5 string tuning without the high D). I apply the above points and adapt to each of my instruments when I play now. I'm out of the rabbit hole. I hope you find your way out too.

Edit: I just read the previous post, the point of hearing the fundamental is great. I use Lace pickups on my low tuned instruments (get at picking up the lows) and a compressor when playing, which can both help the sound perception/ psychological part of the issue

 

[Brad_Pearson]

How heavy and "stiff" is the bass and neck? Stiffer, heavier basses can result in a looser feel (since the body/neck isn't distorting as much when you load and release the string). I've observed this in upright basses, but never noticed it to a problematic level on an electric (thin/light plys with thin flexible necks often feel like bridge cables with standard steel strings, which can feel much more pliable on a heavy carved instrument, though there are many other variable that can affect this).

Try a light, threaded saddle bridge and top load. By creating less stability and coupling between the strings and body you may perceive more string tension (actual string tension is mostly dictated by the scale length, string construction, and obviously pitch).

One last thing is to look at the nut height between basses. Nothing makes a bass feel overly tight than higher nut slots.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I guess I would ideally like to add some more stiffness to the overall system of the custom bass. What would you say would be the easiest/less invasive way/lowest effort way to go about this? I somehow feel that neck inserts + screws would be the easiest thing to try.

Well, there isn't any simple, non-intrusive way to increase the stiffness of the overall neck and the neck/body joint. It involves heavy surgery, a major rebuild. Half as much work as making up a whole new neck. It usually means a new truss rod, maybe some added reinforcements inside the neck, and brass bars in the heel. This is all normally installed from the top, with the fingerboard removed. Which usually means a new fingerboard and frets. These mods can be done to an existing neck, but it's a lot of work. That's why we usually only talk about this stuff in relation to designing and building new necks.

The brass inserts and machine screws mod to the heel won't help much at all with the overall stiffness/sound thing. The bars in the heel that I'm talking about are more substantial and more complicated to install. Search for "BruceBars" if you want to see more about how they are made.

 

[E.J. T.N.T.]

3 points to add:

- Have you used a string tension calculator when deciding what strings to use?

I'm from the metal scene where we low tune. Using string tension calculators helps select strings that will be close to your target tension, but most importantly be relatively even from string to string. You will notice 'my string tension seems a little off' if it's varied between the strings (assuming you're not swapping from instrument to instrument often). It triggers your brain to notice it when you shift playing across different strings.

Warning: you'll notice off the shelf string sets don't often provide even tension per string. Some of us use multiple packs to make a hybrid set.

- tuning commitment - no more hipshot drop tuners. I have never seen these in any serious metal heads quiver of instruments. We commit an instrument to a specific tuning (and specific string type and set) and stick to it. Then keep the instrument setup for that tuning.

- shift your plucking position. You can skip all the above and just focus on this if you need to escape the rabbit hole. On the lower tension instrument, play closer to the bridge. You'll be able to manually adjust your perception of the string tension by slightly adjusting where you pluck/pick.

Use non permanent mods to keep your hand in that new sweet spot. I use self adhesive furniture bumpers as thumb rests. For pick playing, some strips of electrical tape on the bout to rest my forearm on and remind me to keep it there.


I went very deep into low tunings and have a custom multiscale bass (think Dingwall style) but have landed back in the land of the standard 34" scale neck for BEAD (ie 5 string tuning without the high D). I apply the above points and adapt to each of my instruments when I play now. I'm out of the rabbit hole. I hope you find your way out too.

Edit: I just read the previous post, the point of hearing the fundamental is great. I use Lace pickups on my low tuned instruments (get at picking up the lows) and a compressor when playing, which can both help the sound perception/ psychological part of the issue

Yes, I have used a string tension calculator but as others mentioned the issue is not the actual tension but more the perceived tension.

I have been using Rotosound nexus strings (45-105) almost ever since they came out and before that Rotosound stainless steel strings of the same gauge since the 90s. I have tried a lot of different strings but always come back to them because I love the bright sound, long life and high (perceived) tension.

I have been playing heavy rock and metal for most of the time but never utilized particularly low tunings. My main project of the last few years ventured into some lower alternative tunings (the lowest being a drop A, but mostly staying in Drop C and D standard) but I actually enjoy the sound and feel of the standard gauge strings as I find it fits the music well, unlike the most recent trends in that area.

Moreover, I have used the hipshot xtenders for almost 20 years with fantastic results and no issues. I think as long as you have a well cut nut made out of a material that is not causing binding (e.g. graphtech tusq nuts), there will be no tuning issues. As a matter of fact, I have been using the hipshot double stop xtender on 2 instruments and that has allowed to utilize 3 different tunings on a single instrument. This has come especially handy in decreasing the amount of instruments I utilize while touring internationally.

I think that no amount of adjusting the plucking hand will make any difference to how the strings feel under the fretting hand.

Unfortunately,the particular instrument this thread is about has always felt a bit loose. As a matter of fact using the same string set of 045-105 gauge in standard tuning feels almost the same like my benchmark instrument with the same strings in D standard tuning.

Depending on the situation, this can actually be pretty cool, but as I would like to utilize it with the lower tunings I am currently using, the resulting perceived looseness is not very enjoyable.

 

[Beej]

Well, as someone who has played in dropped tunings for years and also have built instruments specifically for extended range tunings, I would say that your experience of having an instrument that does not feel loose when downtuned with standard strings is the unusual thing here, not the 'perceived' looseness you are experiencing with this bass. In my own experience, to get a ballpark standard tuning feel when tuning down a step typically requires about 0.010 of thickness added to the string. Brands vary widely of course, so some trial and error is involved. I also played using detuners in the past and they are typically a compromise and something you just have to live with and adapt your playing. I'd suggest continuing the exploration of slightly thicker strings until you find the feel that matches what you want.

 

[E.J. T.N.T.]

Well, as someone who has played in dropped tunings for years and also have built instruments specifically for extended range tunings, I would say that your experience of having an instrument that does not feel loose when downtuned with standard strings is the unusual thing here, not the 'perceived' looseness you are experiencing with this bass. In my own experience, to get a ballpark standard tuning feel when tuning down a step typically requires about 0.010 of thickness added to the string. Brands vary widely of course, so some trial and error is involved. I also played using detuners in the past and they are typically a compromise and something you just have to live with and adapt your playing. I'd suggest continuing the exploration of slightly thicker strings until you find the feel that matches what you want.

I maintain that the instrument in question feels more "loose" than my benchmark using the same strings even in standard tuning. This is what I am trying to adress. The difference simply becomes considerably more apparent in lower than standard tunings.

Using thicker strings does improve the situation, but the general playing feel is considerably different which is why I am trying to explore different solutions.

 

[Max Bogosity]

Part of the problem with these discussions is just vocabulary. We mostly get that tension in the engineering sense of the word can only be affected by strings and scale length, but nobody's ever quite sure if the other guy knows that or what they might be using the word to describe, so we spend a lot of time just trying to establish what we're talking about and what the problem isn't.

 

[nonohmic]

Put some TI jazz rounds on it.

 

[Beej]

I maintain that the instrument in question feels more "loose" than my benchmark using the same strings even in standard tuning. This is what I am trying to adress. The difference simply becomes considerably more apparent in lower than standard tunings.

Using thicker strings does improve the situation, but the general playing feel is considerably different which is why I am trying to explore different solutions.

Well, I'm curious too. What are the specs of the instruments? I'd be looking at minutiae when making comparisons to see what else could be at play. If they are both basically 'fender style' instruments, then I'd be confirming little things like nut slots, tuner mounting (screws, spacers, ferrules, hole fitment), neck joint, bridge mounting. I'd work to identify and eliminate any slop or play as it will cycle with string movement, however minute.

I'd also compare neck thickness at the first and twelfth frets as well as neck material. You wrote that your custom was a frankenstein - is the neck hard maple (acer saccharum)? There are many kinds of maple, and when I've used big leaf maple versus hard maple, it can be noticeably less stiff (so I use stiffeners and adapt design). Unless this is really more about identifying your sensitivity to the playability issues, there should be something that's a big difference between the two. When I say your sensitivity, people really range in their ability, ear, etc. You could be a player who hears and feels more nuance between instruments than the average person. I know from building custom instruments for a handful of special players that some folks can genuinely notice, feel and hear differences that I simply don't notice until they are pointed out to me and in some cases even after they are pointed out to me.

 

[maturanesa]

I see this as a blessing. 110-50 that is not too tight is gold. Keep it that way, thicker and easy.