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Double Bass Tube Pre for no-amp-gigs

#21
+1 to all the posts reccomending the Fishman products. I've used the pro platinum for years with great success. It's designed to do exactly what you are asking for. EQ, comp, HPF, DI, all that and optimized for DB. It also works great with slab. This Friday night I'll be playing 2 sets on DB followed by 2 sets on slab. The PP will be right before my GK1001/15" for both instruments. It really warms up the Fender FL.
 
#22
adbass said:
I contacted the manufacturer of the tube pre and he told me that there's a "little boost" around 8Hz! Now, for electric bass, this adds some very lovely bottom end, but for DB, there's already a bit going on down there at 8Hz.
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8 Hz? 8 Hz?!!! Those engineers should be strung up with cheap cable. I don't know what these guys are thinking but I assure you that a boost at 8 Hz will do nothing positive for EB or DB. If they really did build in a boost at 8 Hz, then I can truly say that they are sorely misinformed or just plain ignorant about electronics, physical acoustics, speaker technology, and human hearing. Mis-steps like this are more common than you might think in the design of commercial products. Basically, you get a circuit designer who is ill-informed with regard to practical application who says, "Oh, this would be cool."

Actually, for DB there is nothing going on in the acoustic output of the instrument at 8 Hz. Piezo pickups can introduce such infrasonics and those frequencies rob power and wreak havoc on speaker cones. A good HPF is essential, IMO. I use fdeck's wonderful little gem.
 
#27
I've enjoyed your responses to the 8Hz thing.

Hilarious.

I know, it's like whale talk!

The EvilTwin DI is built by one guy, Bruce Seifried, and I have used it countless times to record as well as in live situations with electric bass. I can attest to it sounding really really good in either of those situations. I called the guy (Bruce Seifried) who builds them when I thought of using it with my upright and he really did say 8Hz. Go figure. He also said that I probably should use something else for upright, b/c the DI is really designed for bass guitar.


DrURB: I did end up using FDecks pre to tame the low end and correct the speaker excursion problem I was having with the DI. I found that I only needed it with certain speaker cabs, depending on Xmax and how the cab is tuned. Now,while I appreciate your input, I don't appreciate the negativity. (Is it really necessary?)

But back to the point: I have used it without an amp in live situations and it's been best with EB. As I said earlier, using something that was designed for the DB is probably best.
 
#29
Gearhead43 said:
Boosting at 8hz is recockulous.

Humans can't even hear that, can we?

I thought the lowest freq the average human ear can hear is about 20hz.
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No, we essentially do not hear down to 8 Hz. The usefulness of producing or reproducing such infrasonics stems from the fact that some can be felt. This is irrelevant when it comes to bass amplification (either EB or DB) because no bass cab of which I know or which I can imagine being built has any reasonable response at 8 Hz. In addition, because the excursion of a speaker cone is inversely related to frequency for a constant power, feeding it an 8 Hz signal of any appreciable energy would be quite detrimental to it.
 
#30
drurb said:
No, we essentially do not hear down to 8 Hz. The usefulness of producing or reproducing such infrasonics stems from the fact that some can be felt.
Click to expand...

Yes!

drurb said:
This is irrelevant when it comes to bass amplification (either EB or DB) because no bass cab of which I know or which I can imagine being built has any reasonable response at 8 Hz. In addition, because the excursion of a speaker cone is inversely related to frequency for a constant power, feeding it an 8 Hz signal of any appreciable energy would be quite detrimental to it.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I observed when using it in conjuction with Euphonic Audio's VL-208 cabinet. The speakers didn't like it at all! However, it was OK with bass guitar.

The other cabs I used it with were Bergantino and an electro voice 15, and those cabs didn't seem to mind, I'm guessing because of the way they are tuned.

When I do use the box in a live app with DB, no amp, I always switch on the -20db pad. Otherwise it works well -- again, not as good as with electric bass, but still good.

"Infrasonics created by piezos" sounds like an interesting topic. Can you point me to some reading material?
 
#31
adbass said:
DrURB: I did end up using FDecks pre to tame the low end and correct the speaker excursion problem I was having with the DI. I found that I only needed it with certain speaker cabs, depending on Xmax and how the cab is tuned. Now,while I appreciate your input, I don't appreciate the negativity. (Is it really necessary?)
Click to expand...

Sometimes negativity is quite appropriate. I believe that this is one of those times. I am particularly annoyed by electronic snake-oil salesmen. Many unsuspecting consumers have been bilked of many $$$ by false claims and questionable design practices. I sure never meant to be negative toward you.

I do not doubt for a moment that you have had very good results from the Evil Twin device. That notwithstanding, the addition of a boost at 8 Hz is either made out of ignorance or with the intent to claim that something "special" has been done. Either way, it's troubling. I use the term "ignorance" here in its pure form and not as a pejorative. That is, the designer may simply not know what he is doing.

Now, it would be one thing if the 8-Hz boost were benign but the truth is that it can have substantial negative consequences.

So, with the exception of my comment, "Those engineers should be strung up with cheap cable." which was added for effect, I stand, literally, behind every word I said, especially the sentiment that the designer is "sorely misinformed or just plain ignorant about electronics, physical acoustics, speaker technology, and human hearing."
 
#32
adbass said:
Yes!



This is exactly what I observed when using it in conjuction with Euphonic Audio's VL-208 cabinet. The speakers didn't like it at all! However, it was OK with bass guitar.

The other cabs I used it with were Bergantino and an electro voice 15, and those cabs didn't seem to mind, I'm guessing because of the way they are tuned.

When I do use the box in a live app with DB, no amp, I always switch on the -20db pad. Otherwise it works well -- again, not as good as with electric bass, but still good.

"Infrasonics created by piezos" sounds like an interesting topic. Can you point me to some reading material?
Click to expand...

Gee, we seem to be in agreement. Okay, you mentioned that some cabs didn't mind. I suspect you are right on target with regard to why. That is, they were tuned to reject those frequencies very well. So then there is no point in having them there. All they do is rob power from the amplifier, many of which are wide-band devices that will gladly pass an 8-Hz signal.

When I mentioned low frequencies being felt, I also tried to convey that they would not be so with bass cabinets. One does not usually use speaker cones to transmit such signals even when they are desired.

As to infrasonics, just do an advanced search within this forum on that keyword and put my name in as the member posting. You'll get quite a few threads.
 
#33
drurb said:
Sometimes negativity is quite appropriate. I believe that this is one of those times. I am particularly annoyed by electronic snake-oil salesmen. Many unsuspecting consumers have been bilked of many $$$ by false claims and questionable design practices. I sure never meant to be negative toward you.
Click to expand...

I didn't take it personally. I just don't think it's relevant here, but I get your point.

drurb said:
I do not doubt for a moment that you have had very good results from the Evil Twin device. That notwithstanding, the addition of a boost at 8 Hz is either made out of ignorance or with the intent to claim that something "special" has been done. Either way, it's troubling. I use the term "ignorance" here in its pure form and not as a pejorative. That is, the designer may simply not know what he is doing.
Click to expand...

Thing is, I think Bruce knows exactly what he's doing. He certainly didn't mention anything technical about his pre/DI when I bought it; nothing about frequency range, hertz or anything else. He didn't even really try to sell me on it. Basically, I heard it with electric bass at a studio, and the studio guy pointed me as to where to buy one. When I contacted Bruce, all he said was something like, "it cost xxx dollars . . . you still want it?" and I said hell yea!

Anyway, I gather that his preamp isn't just a flat signal with a 1db or 2db boost at 8Hz -- I think it's a bit more than that. Anyway, google him and write him an email if you want.
 
#34
adbass said:
I didn't take it personally. I just don't think it's relevant here, but I get your point.



Thing is, I think Bruce knows exactly what he's doing. He certainly didn't mention anything technical about his pre/DI when I bought it; nothing about frequency range, hertz or anything else. He didn't even really try to sell me on it. Basically, I heard it with electric bass at a studio, and the studio guy pointed me as to where to buy one. When I contacted Bruce, all he said was something like, "it cost xxx dollars . . . you still want it?" and I said hell yea!

Anyway, I gather that his preamp isn't just a flat signal with a 1db or 2db boost at 8Hz -- I think it's a bit more than that. Anyway, google him and write him an email if you want.
Click to expand...

Understood. Thanks.
 
#38
MR PC said:
Keep your evil twin to yourself!:D

Anybody tried the ART tube channel strip?
Click to expand...

Lol.

So, just to be sure I emailed the guy who makes this thing and he confirmed that there's an 8db boost centered around 7-9Hz.

The reasoning is that it would be there on a CD recording -- def would be a problem on vinyl -- and could be filtered out if necessary.

I guess most cabs filter it out due to tuning, as was mentioned earlier.

back on track: almost everytime i've seen larry grenadier he is without an amp, but most def coming through the PA. I wonder what, if anything he uses, b/c his sound is quite nice! At one point I thought he was running a realist straight to the board, but I really don't know.

Personally, I've never heard/seen/used the ART tube channel strip.
 

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