Tube Watts = SS Watts ??

[Wasnex]

If there’s a way to get bit, I always have a way of finding it.

I think the worst jolt ever I took was 1.5kW burst from a portable navigational beacon. That was hand to hand so I am very lucky to be alive. I think I was holding the case in my left hand and taking the antenna off with my right hand; I didn't realize it was still powered up. It took my breath away and my chest hurt for a couple of weeks.

 

[red_rhino]

That's why Sunn, Ampeg, and Acoustic easily outnumbered Fenders onstage.

As I recall, one of the best on-stage rigs I ever heard back then was a Sunn powering 4x15 JBL speakers. Monsterous!

TO MY EARS

I don't disagree at all with your perception. But marketing shenanigans aside, tube watts and SS watts are identical. The fact that someone prefers one over the other speaks more to personal preference.

Let's say we agree to disagree, eh?

Disagreements? On Talkbass? Wha......?

 

[Wasnex]

Basically I would just say that tube amps sound louder because of psychoacoustics. Our brain tends to hear higher pitched frequencies as louder compared to lower pitches. Since tube sound is harmonically richer than SS (especially when pushed) it will appear to sound louder and more "thick" than the SS counterpart.

Watts are watts but "loudness" does not directly relate to SPL and power output. So that does in fact explain everything IMHO.

I was contemplating this a bit more, and on the way back from the grocery store something very important came to mind. Bass guitar does not produce a pure tone. You have the fundamental, which is not actually very strong, and then you have the overtones or upper harmonics. Something to keep in mind is most amps have tone controls. When you play a low E and crank up the mids, it changes the sound because it emphasizes the harmonics, rather than modifying the 40hz fundamental.

So basically I agree if you push an amp into distortion to get a bit more harmonic content, 1W will be perceived as slightly louder because the energy is shifted to a part of the spectrum where our ears are more sensitive. The voila moment I had is you can compensate for the perceived volume differential by changing the EQ so the net balance of the harmonics in a clean signal is the same as in a distorted signal.

It won't sound the same of course, but it I believe it potentially refutes your assertion that tube watts are perceived as louder and thicker than solid state watts. In my experience, with the right EQ, you can make solid state plenty thick. My observation in general however, is tube lovers don't seem to like to futz around with EQ very much though. As always, my advice is play what you like. I certainly do.

 

[JimmyM]

Fender has struggled as a bass amp company since the 70's. There are so many examples of anemic Fender bass amps. That's why Sunn, Ampeg, and Acoustic easily outnumbered Fenders onstage. I too owned a Bassman with 2 x 15's and it was a piece of crap.

As far as watts goes, I still contend that TO MY EARS tube watts seems louder than SS watts. I also think that companies that make Class D amps fudge the figures or use confusing methods to make their claims of wattage. Let's say we agree to disagree, eh?

Fender struggled as a bass amp company even before then. The only thing that helped them was Fender being mostly west coast and Ampeg mostly east.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

I don't disagree at all with your perception. But marketing shenanigans aside, tube watts and SS watts are identical. The fact that someone prefers one over the other speaks more to personal preference.

I don’t even own a tube amp for the moment but I’d be very interested in pitting my GK MB200 against the Ampeg PF-50T. I’m thinking the 50 watt tube amp would be louder. YMMV.

 

[Wasnex]

I don’t even own a tube amp for the moment but I’d be very interested in pitting my GK MB200 against the Ampeg PF-50T. I’m thinking the 50 watt tube amp would be louder. YMMV.

What's holding you back? DO IT!

 

[Sparkl]

Most people don't play with a power meter. They simply adjust their amp so it is loud enough to get the job done. If tube watts were perceived as significantly louder than solid state, then my 300W Ampeg SVTs and 300W Ashdown CTM300 should be perceived as louder than my 380W GK 700RB. The decibel different between 300W and 380W is 1dB, but the GK sounds noticeably louder and retains the low end long after the tube amps have started to mush out and distort. The GK actually hangs really well with my 400W tube amps. It appears my experience is different than yours.

I agree the level of distortion can have a bearing on which watt is perceived as louder, but apparently it's not that significant. Additionally, there is nothing to restrict an engineer from designing distortion into a solid state amp, or a player from using an OD pedal. So I don't really see distortion as a tube VS solid state matter.

To my ears this gets really apparent. I can plug my SVT3Pro into the same SVT810 and notice immediately how wider, louder and heftier my V4B is in comparison even though I am comparing 100w tube vs 400-something W 3Pro.

It is especially obvious to me when listening to guitar amps. 30W SS and 30W tube, the tube amp will sound way louder than any 30W SS guitar amp unless you put some heavy distortion filtering through it.

 

[Sparkl]

I was contemplating this a bit more, and on the way back from the grocery store something very important came to mind. Bass guitar does not produce a pure tone. You have the fundamental, which is not actually very strong, and then you have the overtones or upper harmonics. Something to keep in mind is most amps have tone controls. When you play a low E and crank up the mids, it changes the sound because it emphasizes the harmonics, rather than modifying the 40hz fundamental.

So basically I agree if you push an amp into distortion to get a bit more harmonic content, 1W will be perceived as slightly louder because the energy is shifted to a part of the spectrum where our ears are more sensitive. The voila moment I had is you can compensate for the perceived volume differential by changing the EQ so the net balance of the harmonics in a clean signal is the same as in a distorted signal.

It won't sound the same of course, but it I believe it potentially refutes your assertion that tube watts are perceived as louder and thicker than solid state watts. In my experience, with the right EQ, you can make solid state plenty thick. My observation in general however, is tube lovers don't seem to like to futz around with EQ very much though. As always, my advice is play what you like. I certainly do.

Yeah exactly. But as stated in a previous post, there is something in the tube signal path that makes the tone rock from straight flat EQ settings. Every eq adjustment you do (at least on Ampegs and Fenders IMHO) only adds or detracts the "coolness". With SS I struggle many times because I am searching and listening for that something in harmonic richness that I just cannot fully get with any SS I've tried. It must be in the power tubes, the way the sound compresses, evens out and enriches the sound is something you have to use a quality pedalboard chain for the SS to get close.

As you have said, different flavors.

 

[Jim C]

I don’t even own a tube amp for the moment but I’d be very interested in pitting my GK MB200 against the Ampeg PF-50T. I’m thinking the 50 watt tube amp would be louder. YMMV.

I've got big money to bet against you and you'd be a fool to bet assuming we use the same 5% distortion figures. In other words, we measure both amps with the same low distortion numbers, similar EQ, and then measure SPL with a cabinet that is rated for 300 watts.
It would make sense to me to loose $100K as you would have found a way to change the laws of physics and I'm positive I could make a fortune on that.

BTW, I love and own tubes amps (SVT)

 

[alaskaleftybass]

What's holding you back? DO IT!

I live in Alaska and don't have the opportunity to test out the Ampeg. Secondly, this is mostly a hypothetical statement on my part. Sorry you missed that.

 

[Wasnex]

To my ears this gets really apparent. I can plug my SVT3Pro into the same SVT810 and notice immediately how wider, louder and heftier my V4B is in comparison even though I am comparing 100w tube vs 400-something W 3Pro.

It is especially obvious to me when listening to guitar amps. 30W SS and 30W tube, the tube amp will sound way louder than any 30W SS guitar amp unless you put some heavy distortion filtering through it.

I haven't played a V4B or SVT3-Pro. Based on comments, it seems most people greatly prefer the tone of V4B. There are also lot's of comments that the SVT3-Pro is not as loud as expected. I believe the normal recommendation is to ignore the blinky lights and it will get plenty loud.

By Hiwatt DR103 is my loudest 100W tube head. I am pretty sure it makes more the 100W clean. My SVTs and the GK 700RB is significanty louder. I would say they can bury the DR103 if all amps are used for bass. Use one of the SVTs or the 700RB for bass and give the DR103 to a guitar player with no limits on volume, and the bass player will probably cry for mercy.

All of the 30W SS guitar amps I have ever heard were junk. They were brutally loud, but not the good kind. Hard to compare a really crappy amp to a good gone IMHO. At that point I really don't care how loud it is. The old SS Lab Series guitar amps sounded nice back in the day. I can't say how they compare volume wise.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

I've got big money to bet against you and you'd be a fool to bet assuming we use the same 5% distortion figures. In other words, we measure both amps with the same low distortion numbers, similar EQ, and then measure SPL with a cabinet that is rated for 300 watts.
It would make sense to me to loose $100K as you would have found a way to change the laws of physics and I'm positive I could make a fortune on that.

BTW, I love and own tubes amps (SVT)

So sez you. I'm not convinced. So I'm a fool by your standards. Have a nice day.

 

[Wasnex]

Secondly, this is mostly a hypothetical statement on my part. Sorry you missed that.

I got it, but it doesn't have to remain hypothetical .

 

[Jim C]

So sez you. I'm not convinced. So I'm a fool by your standards. Have a nice day.

Sorry.
Didn't, mean to imply anything.
I don't understand this thinking that that the laws of physics could be changed because of vacuum tubes instead of solid state devices.
Think of it this way, would a 100 horse power Chevy engine be more powerful than a 100 HP Ford engine when measured the same with with the same standards?

 

[David Jayne]

I don’t even own a tube amp for the moment but I’d be very interested in pitting my GK MB200 against the Ampeg PF-50T. I’m thinking the 50 watt tube amp would be louder. YMMV.

You'd lose that bet, but maybe not by a lot at least as far as what you think you actually HEAR is concerned. Why? Because a typical tube head can in many cases put out DOUBLE it's rated power, but with a distortion penalty (unless you like heavy distortion). The little MB will still make twice the power of the little 'Peg with both dimed. Math doesn't lie. But don't forget about EQ and such..... The MB heads have a baked-in sound that pushes deep lows unless you deliberately reduce Bass control.... My guess is the 'Peg does not.... Advantage 'Peg if true and you don't compensate.

 

[Koshchei]

Watts are not a measure of volume. They're a derived unit of power, where 1 watt = 1 joule/sec.

For volume, you want decibels.

Does anybody want to make the argument that tube decibels are louder than solid state decibels?

 

[crazyBassClown]

Think of it this way, would a 100 horse power Chevy engine be more powerful than a 100 HP Ford engine when measured the same with with the same standards?

If by measured in the same way you mean at 5000 rpm but the ford engine produces max power at that while the chevy is max power at 8000 rpm then yes. And thats the thing with tubes, you can run much higher distortion figures and be happy with the sound.

 

[pht2356]

I think you're experiencing the effects of diathermy, not audio.

Perhaps, tube amps do seem to relieve my pain

 

[Wasnex]

Yeah exactly. But as stated in a previous post, there is something in the tube signal path that makes the tone rock from straight flat EQ settings. Every eq adjustment you do (at least on Ampegs and Fenders IMHO) only adds or detracts the "coolness". With SS I struggle many times because I am searching and listening for that something in harmonic richness that I just cannot fully get with any SS I've tried. It must be in the power tubes, the way the sound compresses, evens out and enriches the sound is something you have to use a quality pedalboard chain for the SS to get close.

As you have said, different flavors.

I think what is clear is your tube rig is the tone you hear in your head, and that's a good thing. I really have no desire to try and convince you that solid state is better. Each person must find his/her own path, and you seem content and knowledgeable .

The only reason I participate in these threads is because I bought into the all-tube hype when I was a kid and it didn't work out so well, so I try to sort of walk the middle ground here and hopefully provide an objective view when the BS gets a little too thick.

I could be wrong, but my perspective is it's almost always the tube side that tends to go a bit hyperbolic. To make matters worse, the discussion often takes on sort of a fake news/facts don't matter slant: SVT is the king of bass. Ain't nothing better. Yeah I know that's right; the tone is just right, so big and phat. My SVT can blow down a whole wall of Marshalls. Yep that's all you need is a good ole SVT; ain't nothin better. It's better 'cause it full of tubes. Yep tubey deliciousness. Sorry but . SVTs are definitely cool, but they don't meet everyone's needs.

Here's my sad, sad story. I wanted the best, so the first bass amp I ever bought was a brand new MTI era SVT and 810. I had never heard one or seen one, but I had read plenty of magazine articles about the king of the bass amps. The amp was special ordered and I worked a minimum wage job to pay it off. It came in after I had paid off about half, and the store let me try it out. It sounded so bad that I though it was broken or perhaps counterfeit. It really sounded nothing like I expected based on the reviews and articles. Regarding the concerns with counterfeiting, as you know MTIs don't look quite the same as the older Ampegs, and I was not aware MTI had taken over and changed the cosmetics.

Anyway, no refunds on special orders, so I paid the amp off over the following summer and took it home. Over the years, I tried many SVTs and 810s and learned that's just the way they sound. I have come to love SVTs, but I don't care for the Ampeg 810. I won't argue that it's an awful cab. Many people love the 810E so obviously it's awesome! It's must not for me.

I wound up buying an Orban 672A and biamping my SVT with a Fender Twin loaded with JBL E120s. That was a nice sounding rig, but man it was heavy....too heavy.

 

[fourstringburn]

Bring over your tube amps!

There is no substitute for such strong, tight, and powerful Bass tones that higher power SS amps can deliver at any volume!

Unless you like that broken up sagging tone when a tube amp is cranked, that's your preference. I do like tube amps at lower to modest levels though.

Those "psycho-acoustics you hear are just that, Psycho! Wouldn't be heard in the mix anyway.

I already compared my rig side by side to a SVT CL and also made comparisons of preamps with my SVP Pro preamp to the SVT CL and I honestly prefer the SVP Pro better. Mainly because of the extra edge from the Drive circuit is the difference. Amp wise, no contest against my current rig of course. I normally use very little EQ. Most are set flat or some cut values when necessary. Don't need it with Fender Basses and Ampeg preamps!

Not flaming or trolling, just giving my honest opinion about my personal experiences with both amp types.

Before you guys chastise me, have you honestly made similar side by comparisons?



Nothing like 2-810e's to shake things up!

I need to update my current rig pic which consists of the items listed in my signature.