Tube Watts = SS Watts ??

[beans-on-toast]

....probably far less likely to bite you than an exposed anode rail in an SVT...

If there’s a way to get bit, I always have a way of finding it.

 

[The Juice]

I have a couple SVT's too. 12 power tubes is a lot, but do you have to replace all of them when one goes out?

You're right there. Switching, swapping and testing for the bad one or two or even ,more can be problematic though.

 

[Dave814]

I prefer tube watts, and I’ll be 64 next week.

 

[Passinwind]

If there’s a way to get bit, I always have a way of finding it.

On that note, how's that horse bite healing David?

 

[beans-on-toast]

On that note, how's that horse bite healing David?

There was some bruising, skin broke a tiny bit. There must be something magic in horse spit. A week later I can't see any evidence of it.

It was my fault. I had just used a scented hand sanitizer. The horse must have taken the smell of my fist as something tasty.

 

[Tricaptain]

Sup, peeps (simply offering my personal opinion/making conversation...)!

I'm a Mesa/Boogie fan. Like, ALWAYS have been, always WILL be. That said, I'm also a MarkBass fan. I say this, because back in the day, I'd had a Mesa 400+. In my heart of hearts, *I'd play no other amp*. I LOVED the air it moved, the power it had, the emotion and inspiration it invoked EVERY TIME I PLAYED A NOTE.

...but BOY, is it ever heavy.

Thankfully, lots of amp manufactures are now delving into the impossible with power and portability. I now have Markbass amps (way lighter than a 400+, of course!), but also have a Mesa D800+. I no longer have a 400+ to get a true comparison between the 400+ and the D800+, but there is SOOO MUCH POWER and legendary tone in the D800+ that I don't ever have to look back (I can, but I just choose not to at this point). For me, I'd rather drive a slow car, fast... than be limited to driving a fast car... slow. Same goes for gear. Mesa 400+ (as well as one of the Ampeg SVT heads I'd had) have SOOO much tube power, I can't ever really push them the way I want to at a gig to get inspiring tone where you can FEEL it (as well as hear it). In my situation, amps have become more a stage monitor, and the PA handles more of the power/tone spread to the house.

Also, the D800+ (as well as the MarkBass amps I have, are) is solid state. For me, it just seems simpler in many ways to deal with solid state. The numbers seem to make sense to me, and it's easier (in my mind) to think of my modular options. SURE, I looooooooooove tubes... but I'd rather keep it simple, lightweight, and still powerful enough to handle any cab configuration... and any gig.

This is a GREAT conversation, and its find to understand what everything means... hopefully, it doesn't steer folks too far away from inspiration and the sheer fun of playing.

Cheers, peeps!

 

[el murdoque]

If I remember correctly, and forgive me if I get the numbers wrong, but . . .

Remember the TC Rebel Head 750 thing?
For the younger ones, a quick recap: TC Electronics caught quite a bit of a backlash a couple of years ago when it became evident that the power amp driving the amp, which was advertised as a 750W head, could only produce some 230ish Watts.


So TC sent out a text explaining that the amp uses a clever multi band compression to squeeze a perceived loudness out of the amp that is equal to a 750 Watts head. The bassists playing these heads did never question their power because they actually got a perceived loudness out of that amp that suggested they had 750 Watts on tap.
I'm not sure whether it was in that paper or if it was in another text about that compression, but TC claimed that this works a lot like tube amplifiers start compressing the signal once they are pushed far enough.

So in conclusion, there are amplifiers that are capable of sounding louder than others, using either clever digital tools, or just plain ol' powertubes.

I myself can report that in my first hand experience, I've tried a 50W tube head in a setting I feared was too loud for 50 watts, even with two capable cabinets. I was right. The bass sounded massive and was quite loud on its own, but got completely buried in the mix. I switched to an old Peavey Mark IV that does 240 watts @ 4 ohms and was considerably louder, even though I needed that to run on maximum output as well. Normally, I use a Tonehammer 500 or a GSS Baby Sumo (rated 600W) in that room. Both of these are capable of much more than the Peavey. They both get me clearly audible in the mix with clean headroom to spare - and in the case of the Tonehammer, there's even a bit more to squeeze out if you don't mind dirty.

 

[red_rhino]

In the 70's I used an SVT/810 and I NEVER needed more watts. Ever.

In the 70's I used a Fender Bassman or Dual Showman with a 2x15 cab and I was NEVER loud enough. Always running on 10 in order to keep up and wishing for more.

So yes, to my ears tube watts are truly louder.

I would submit that what was louder was the 8x10, not merely the SVT (although I'm sure that didn't hurt).

In the 70's, the solid state amp offerings were all rather anemic. But times change and technology advances. My GK MB800 thru an Accugroove El Whappo will literally (no kidding) make your pant legs flap from 15 feet away. It would probably drive an 8x10 pretty well too, but the sound would be different as compared to an SVT.

A watt is a watt (of course, of course; don't take it from me, just ask AgedHorse ). There are too many variables in the signal chain, including amp and speaker design/implementation) to formulate any argument that watts by themselves somehow equates to loudness.

 

[byacey]

Some people are content with the sound quality solid state offers, and the factors such as weight, portability, and reliability that make solid state more attractive.

Others, refuse to accept anything less than the tonal options derived from tubes, and are willing to cart around the extra weight and put up with the reliability & maintenance issues to obtain that tone. To each, their own.

From the power perspective, it seems like a lot of fuss over something relatively inconsequential, in my opinion.
For the jobs I do, 200W of clean power is more than sufficient, and if more level is required, there is the FOH PA for support, or everyone turns down to a more reasonable level. Besides- once you start trying to jam higher power levels into a speaker voice coil, you start encountering power compression and the associated heating, along with mechanical fatigue and damage.

 

[devilkitty]

i wonder, if class d or whatever improves drastically, if one day we'll be rating our amps in horsepower. i think it could make for some fun/weird conversions

There are 746 watts per horsepower. A 300 watt amp, therefore, develops 0.402hp.
I don't think marketing will try it until class D gets up over 3000 watts or so...
(Point four horsepower? My lawnmower can do better!)

 

[Fishheadjoe]

Fishheadjoe

 

[Wasnex]

you own 28 amps?! You are my hero! Where do you keep them all? It does my heart good to know there’s people like you (and me) out there.

I keep most of them in two rooms in my basement. Some are permanently stacked on speakers and conference tables, so I don't have to move them around. The big guitar amps have matching 412 speakers with castors, and I keep them parked in a corner. About 7 of my big tube bass heads are rotated on/off the floor. Wish I had room for a couple more conference tables, because lifting the big tube amps is a pain.

I have slowed way down on my collecting, but I still struggle with GAS for a few vintage and extraordinary amps. Hard to resist buying a Mesa D180. I am sure I will succumb eventually ; just have to see the right amp and deal at a moment of weakness.

 

[Wisebass]

Hi arbiterusa

Threads like this are why agedhorse got pissed off and started getting unpleasant with people.

I don' t think so!

Threads like this show up on "Amps and Cabs" just as often

as "P vs J" threads show up on "Basses".

Andy posted a lot on these threads! He provided always the best informations!

A lot of them became his threads once the "IMO this is better than that" guys were out!

There are a lot of "these" threads that have become deep inside information

for everybody who actually takes the time to read!



Only Andy can tell you why he "started getting unpleasant"!

I don' t think that it is about the thread or noobs asking questions

that have been discussed a thousand times.

I think it' s about the attitude some folks have!

"My opinion is as good (or even better) as your facts"

It $v(l<s!!!!


We are not allowed to discuss his absence!!!! (but I am pretty sure that it wasn 't for a "thread like this"!)


greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[arbiterusa]

"My opinion is as good (or even better) as your facts"

He and I briefly discussed this. You're not wrong, that was the core of the problem. I'll just leave it there.

 

[JimChjones]

If I ever learned something it's that watts don't mean poop until you actually try something out. I was completely shocked at how much pleasant loudness (I don't even care about SPL anymore) a CTS Alnico Ampeg SVT810 (a "measly" 250W RMS rated cab) puts out. It completely stomps over my other gear including the Aguilar DB410 (granted, comparing with the same amp, in this case my Ampeg V4B).

This is, if you'll forgive me, a fine example of the sort of confusion that folks get into with this topic. Its completely expected that if you bang 200W of signal in an 8*10 it will be an awful lot louder than 200W of signal into a 4*10. In fact all else being equal we'd expect 200W into an 8*10 to be louder than 400W into a 4*10. Its all because, to repeat the mantra, watts are not a measure of volume. Indeed, when it comes to cabs, all watts are is a measure of how much you can stuff into a cabinet before it breaks.

 

[crazyBassClown]

The usual generalisations fall short in two major aspects:
1. Soft clipping is a self-perpetuated myth, proven false by simply hooking the amplifier output to an oscilloscope. e.g. SVT output is flat out hard clipping and square-wavish at 400w output power. T

A spectrum analyzer is a much better tool than an oscilloscope for testing soft vs hard clipping, the difference is in the high frequency content, or how sharp or rounded the edges of that flat top are when looked at on an oscilloscope.
The output transformer limits high frequency output much more than an SS amplifier.

You might want to take a look at the first stage in many current SMPS based amps. That stage is often a rectifier/voltage doubler, with no transformer isolation to the line input at all. It's highly isolated by other means (at least in certified commercial pieces) and probably far less likely to bite you than an exposed anode rail in an SVT, but it's definitely still serious business.

I'm guessing thats a 110V US thing, to get you up to just as dangerous as our 240Vmains.
Either way the mains is dangerous, but I'd still choose that over the 400 to 700 or possibly more you find a tube amp power supply.

 

[JimmyM]

This is, if you'll forgive me, a fine example of the sort of confusion that folks get into with this topic. Its completely expected that if you bang 200W of signal in an 8*10 it will be an awful lot louder than 200W of signal into a 4*10. In fact all else being equal we'd expect 200W into an 8*10 to be louder than 400W into a 4*10. Its all because, to repeat the mantra, watts are not a measure of volume. Indeed, when it comes to cabs, all watts are is a measure of how much you can stuff into a cabinet before it breaks.

And it's a ballpark at that. But it is better than nothing, and it's a way for people who aren't electronic engineers to get an idea of what will blow their cabs. But as always, your best defense for not blowing your cabs are your ears and what's between them.

 

[Wasnex]

Basically I would just say that tube amps sound louder because of psychoacoustics. Our brain tends to hear higher pitched frequencies as louder compared to lower pitches. Since tube sound is harmonically richer than SS (especially when pushed) it will appear to sound louder and more "thick" than the SS counterpart.

Most people don't play with a power meter. They simply adjust their amp so it is loud enough to get the job done. If tube watts were perceived as significantly louder than solid state, then my 300W Ampeg SVTs and 300W Ashdown CTM300 should be perceived as louder than my 380W GK 700RB. The decibel different between 300W and 380W is 1dB, but the GK sounds noticeably louder and retains the low end long after the tube amps have started to mush out and distort. The GK actually hangs really well with my 400W tube amps. It appears my experience is different than yours.

I agree the level of distortion can have a bearing on which watt is perceived as louder, but apparently it's not that significant. Additionally, there is nothing to restrict an engineer from designing distortion into a solid state amp, or a player from using an OD pedal. So I don't really see distortion as a tube VS solid state matter.

 

[JimmyM]

A spectrum analyzer is a much better tool than an oscilloscope for testing soft vs hard clipping, the difference is in the high frequency content, or how sharp or rounded the edges of that flat top are when looked at on an oscilloscope.
The output transformer limits high frequency output much more than an SS amplifier.


I'm guessing thats a 110V US thing, to get you up to just as dangerous as our 240Vmains.
Either way the mains is dangerous, but I'd still choose that over the 400 to 700 or possibly more you find a tube amp power supply.

Funny how death doesn't differentiate between two measures of high voltage. Once you get past a certain point, you are going to die. And I would bet dollars to Donuts that a micro with an smps can kill you just as well as an SVT if you go poking around in it while it's plugged in. And yet, both are perfectly harmless as long as you take reasonable precautions against doing something stupid.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

In the 70's I used a Fender Bassman or Dual Showman with a 2x15 cab and I was NEVER loud enough. Always running on 10 in order to keep up and wishing for more.


I would submit that what was louder was the 8x10, not merely the SVT (although I'm sure that didn't hurt).

In the 70's, the solid state amp offerings were all rather anemic. But times change and technology advances. My GK MB800 thru an Accugroove El Whappo will literally (no kidding) make your pant legs flap from 15 feet away. It would probably drive an 8x10 pretty well too, but the sound would be different as compared to an SVT.

A watt is a watt (of course, of course; don't take it from me, just ask AgedHorse ). There are too many variables in the signal chain, including amp and speaker design/implementation) to formulate any argument that watts by themselves somehow equates to loudness.

Fender has struggled as a bass amp company since the 70's. There are so many examples of anemic Fender bass amps. That's why Sunn, Ampeg, and Acoustic easily outnumbered Fenders onstage. I too owned a Bassman with 2 x 15's and it was a piece of crap.

As far as watts goes, I still contend that TO MY EARS tube watts seems louder than SS watts. I also think that companies that make Class D amps fudge the figures or use confusing methods to make their claims of wattage. Let's say we agree to disagree, eh?