Unlined or Lined: Irrelevant?

[bucephylus]

Edgar Meyer might be an accomplished bass player, but his understanding of learning might need a little work. Very few humans have the cognitive capacity to perform a single act for 12 hours productively, from a learning standpoint.

I’m not a brain scientist either but I’m still very confident that three 2 hour sessions with breaks in between would be more productive.

Perhaps. I also studied with Steve Tramontozzi, who was Assistant Principle in the SFO at the time. Steve told me he had holed up for about two years doing the 12 hour thing, prior to his auditions.

I understand what you are saying, and suspect there may be efficiency / diminishing returns issues. But, people do it. Great players. That’s how competitive the major orchestra chairs are.

 

[JRA]

Maybe it's because of the rude and intentionally disparaging remarks that compare lines to training wheels? I think most people don't care what everyone else plays, but there are a few loud, rude ones out there that think their stuff doesn't stink because they can play unlined fretless.

i promote fretless playing because i think the axes are easier to play. what the board looks like is irrelevant. enough folks stated/posted that in this thread. it's not complicated and i believe that most reasonable people would agree. if someone believes they are 'superior' because they play an unlined board = they're hiding their insecurities with delusion. OTOH: an unlined board has certain advantages/disadvantages for a specific player and progress on it is worth something...and sharing a POV can have value.

but this time, in this thread: i think the 'liners' got defensive, more or less spontaneously, and we were off to the races! that's not exactly a surprise around this joint --- happens all the time!*


* i'm not saying that it doesn't provide some entertainment value.

 

[SteveCS]

Regarding practice, here is one story for reference:

I attended an Edgar Meyer Master class one time at Central Michigan University. the Master Class consisted of Edgar playing a little, talking about his bass and his philosophical approach; and then a succession of increasing advanced students in the bass department playing a piece and being coached by Edgar.

That latter succession got around to the top student in the class, who came out and played an excellent piece (I’ve forgotten exactly what it was). At the conclusion of his performance, Edgar praised his performance, and then simply asked him how many hours a day he was practicing. the answer was 4 to 5 hours a day. Seemed somewhat reasonable for a student. But, Edgar shook his head and stated “if you want to compete, you had better be thinking 11 to 12 hours a day. That’s what it will take.” Seriously. Pretty sobering.

I’m retired and can afford the time for practice. But, on upright, the concept of putting in 12 hours a day practicing blows my mind, even from a sheer physicality standpoint. For me 3 or 4 hours a day is sufficient for what I want to accomplish. Thank god I don’t have to compete at the “pro” level.

From 1983 to 1987 I probably put in 7 to 10 hours a day. From '88 to '91, probably 20-30 hours a week. These days I'm lucky if I average 5 hours a week. Intonation is just something that happens effortlessly now, but without that initial work I have no doubt things would be quite different now.

My daughter is preparing for conservatoire audtions next year on 'cello (1st study) and double bass (2nd study), and easily plays 10 hours a day. So yes, I don't doubt your Edgar anecdote.

Since I can't go back to school, maybe I need to retire?

 

[oldfretless]

Great posts, just my .02 . In 76 I never saw a lined fretless. It's what everyone had. I've yet to see anyone mention vibrato, the coolest part. Everyone's hung up on intonation, which is easy until above the 12th, which hardly no one plays there. If that's the case, the "vomit" exercises are what you need to practice. Similar to playing All Right Now with the first part at the E string and jumping to play the 2nd part at the 17 fret (so to speak). Those exercises apply to fretted also. And Simandl fingering works for me.

 

[evenintheshower]

I have both, play both, and love both. I think I love my lined one more (a Fender Am. Std. Fretless Jazz), but only because it was my first one and my wife didn't beat me for getting it at the time because it was legitimately different than the only other bass (a Fender American P-Bass) I owned.

Really though, it doesn't matter to me anymore which one I am playing. I will say (and I think someone else touched on it) that I have found when I am having trouble hearing myself because of problems with IEMs or there are stage volume issues, the lines are handy as a quick point of reference. Most of the time, I find this happens with loud music situations where something is out of whack. Even so, I think muscle memory is really important and that means time spent practicing and playing the instrument, lines or not.

 

[Neko]

As a former fretless enthusiast, my point of view is that lines does not matter, the side dots are what you see in a normal playing position anyway. They are more a stunt for reinsuring people or reminiscent of those first fretless who used to be fretted.

 

[beatlebass64]

I have an unlined fretless with both side dots and lines on the side of the neck.

Best of both worlds?

 

[SteveCS]

Edgar Meyer might be an accomplished bass player, but his understanding of learning might need a little work. Very few humans have the cognitive capacity to perform a single act for 12 hours productively, from a learning standpoint.

I’m not a brain scientist either but I’m still very confident that three 2 hour sessions with breaks in between would be more productive.

It's not a single act, like just running scales or reciting a piece. It's all elements...
|: Individual lessons, solo pieces, group lessons, ensemble parts, ensemble rehearsals, sectionals, masterclasses, choirs, scales, arpeggii, intonation, tone, dynamics, theory, reading, composition, analysis, etc :|

 

[Lagado]

Name a named bassist in the field of education who recommends not having lines. I can name a few who do recommend having lines, and for very good reason. I think some people are overestimating their accuracy...

 

[JRA]

https://www.talkbass.com/members/lfmn16.202464/ , maybe i spoke too soon!

I have an unlined fretless with both side dots and lines on the side of the neck. Best of both worlds?

sure, why not? what's your experience? none here.

per the OP: well cheese, you've really gone and done it this time with this wild-a$$ thread --- without spending anything but a penny for your thoughts! what a gas!

 

[logdrum]

A double bass doesn't have lines.

This is true but there are more reference points on a Double Bass and "money fret area" equivalent to the 7 frets) is less than a foot from your eyes hence you can be precise and there are even grain markings that you can use and this easier to see. I always say it is harder to be in tune on a fretless bass guitar

 

[The Deep]

Less is more when it comes to fretless.

Unlined FTW.

 

[beatlebass64]

https://www.talkbass.com/members/lfmn16.202464/ , maybe i spoke too soon!


sure, why not? what's your experience? none here.

per the OP: well cheese, you've really gone and done it this time with this wild-a$$ thread --- without spending anything but a penny for your thoughts! what a gas!

I'm nothing special on the fretless, but as others have pointed out I find that when you are playing the side of the neck is where my attention goes so the fret lines and fret dots on the side of the neck are very helpful.

 

[bassdude51]

A double bass doesn't have lines.

True. And a double bass is also about a 41.5 inch scale and is quite forgiving if not dead on to a note. An electric bass of 34" scale, intonation is pretty critical and an off note can be easily heard. Especially difficult to hit accurate notes in high register.

Let's just say that the king of fretless electric bass named Jaco had a lined fretless neck. Lest we be as humble.

 

[dhagopian]

Gonna argue that side dot placement is more important than whether or not there are lines...on fretless, I can't stand dots that mimic fretted bass placement.

Agree. Makes no sense. Especially if you're standing and only really see the side well. I have a lined fretless with the side dots on the line - same as if it were unlined.

 

[Joebone]

Agree. Makes no sense. Especially if you're standing and only really see the side well. I have a lined fretless with the side dots on the line - same as if it were unlined.

That's a gorgeous bass in your avatar!

 

[alangrus]

If you are a child, learning Bass, lines are fine.
If you are a grown-up, its horribly wrong.
No one in the orchestra has "lines" on their stringed instruments.

 

[johnbee]

Sorry if I'm repeating what some other people said, but here is my personal experience:

• I started fretless when I was new to bass (less than one year in). At that point, the lines were extremely helpful, because I did not have a good sense of the 'grid' of the fretboard. The lines were crucial to me at that point.
• A few years in, the lines became annoying to me. Reason being that I would lean over and look at the top of the board, which would hurt my neck (on my physical human body not the bass ) I have been retraining myself past few years to play without looking, so that pushes me more in the direction of unlined.
• What I HATE about lined fretless is that (with some possible exceptions, somewhere...) the dots are between where the frets would be, instead of exactly where the frets would be. That is so confusing and annoying.
• 15 years in, I am a fully mediocre player, but I feel confident without lines. The dots are fine...
• ...well, the dots are fine up too about the 7th or 8th 'fret'. After that it is hard for me to keep good intonation. So, IMO, if you are playing rock and blues, the lines aren't really needed, but if you are doing some tricky jazz stuff that requires the upper positions, then lines are more useful. So, I see why somebody like Gary Willis (or Jaco!) likes lines, while somebody like the bassist for Bad Company or Peter Frampton does not.
• If I am honest with myself, one thing I like about unlined is that people know I am playing fretless and are impressed. Also, lines are one more thing to go wrong on a bass ... eventually they might pop up and you will need to plane the board.
• People say "standup bass doesn't have lines", and that is true. But standup also has a longer scale that gives you some wiggle room, and (apparently) also has physical markers (like where the body meets etc.) that help you figure out where you are. So if you have unlined on an electric, you definitely need some kid of markers. That said, dots on the side are fine.
• It is a great idea to have very similar basses with frets and no frets. Then you can learn a song on the fretted and switch over to the fretless.

Bottom line, play what you like and feel good about it. There is no right or wrong. I would be happy to play either, as long as I had side dots in the 'right' position (on the 'frets', not between them), or had very visible lines on the side of the neck so I do not need contort myself to look at my fingers.

 

[Steadfast]

I own both. I prefer my unlined g&l.

Really not much of an adjustment provided the intonation is accurate from the start on the set up.

 

[dhagopian]

That's a gorgeous bass in your avatar!

Thanks! That one is actually unlined! Well actually it has the dots and "sidelines" in between the dots if that makes sense.