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Unlined or Lined: Irrelevant?

#121
The upright bass is a completely different animal, in terms of hand positions and reference points. And FWIW Edgar Meyer has dots as fingerboard reference marks on his fingerboard in the upper thumb position on his 17th century Gabrielli. Upright basses also do not generally have side dots. There are other ways to orient reference positions on the upright in the lower positions that don’t work on the bass guitar. If you doubt this, try taping over your bass guitar side dots, and then see how much fun you have playing in the lower register.

Back to the bass guitar, it is factual that the player can not see the fingerboard in the lower (money) positions; say, up to the 7th “fret” at least. So, fingerboard marks are irrelevant in those positions, where a lot of bass playing happens. And, the side dots serve extremely well as reference points there.

The upper positions are a different matter. The fingerboard around the octave and above is completely visible in a standing playing position. Since the notes are closer together in such positions, accuracy on stop points is all the more critical. So, if you play much in that upper register, Real Book heads etc, then having markings on the fingerboard makes sense. Unfortunately side dots require a triangulation that makes them unreliable IME in those positions, especially with significant shifts. Playing musically and in tune in the upper register is facilitated with some kind of fingerboard reference marks.

I can’t comment constructively on the “bare boards look cooler” concept. No one you will ever play for cares one wet noodle about what kind of marks are or are not on your fingerboard. This kind of discussion quite definitely gets into dick measuring contest territory; which is pretty bizarre, considering the world class fretless bass guitar players who have relied on fingerboard reference marks through the decades.

I guess whatever works for you; but in any case be musical and play in tune. And. Let’s please not denigrate players choices one way or the other.
 
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#122
arbiterusa said:
Why on earth would they do that?

When I first started violin, my teacher put tape lines on my instrument and told me that in two weeks they were coming off, so I'd better learn where they were. She was as good as her word; two weeks and they were gone.

Lines keep you looking at the fingerboard, which is just fine if fretless is not your main thing (the usual situation is that it gets busted out on a couple of ballads and that's that). But if you're gonna play fretless as your only instrument, you gotta not be looking at the fingerboard. Goes double if you sing.

Enjoy the Geddy. I was pulling for the TF, but damn, those Geddy basses are the nicest thing Fender makes right now.
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My teacher regularly gigs on acoustic, but he is dead set against unlined fretless. He just seems to have a hang up about it. I know I could be competent on unlined, so there is no doubt he could do it too.

His opposition is not why I am walking away from the TF. I simply already have a great fretless. I also feel an obligation to keep my word since the Geddy was a special order. I could still see me getting a cheaper unlined like a Rockbass or used Warwick Corvette if I come across a great deal.
 
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#123
Lagado said:
This certainly would have not sounded the same without lines. Even Willis would admit that. Unlined basses are alright, as long as you stay below the 12th fret... The human ear is not very efficient at all at lower frequencies, you can get away with ropey intonation down low, but not at the upper scale of the board. It will all become apparent.

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It is not necessary to have lines to play above the half-way mark. I get up the top end quite a bit on these and never play out of tune. It's nothing to be scared of - most of a violin fingerboard will fit between the end of a fender fingerboard and the bridge and covers 36 notes in 11 inches. ... 24 notes in ~25" is a breeze.
20200306_161342.jpg
 
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#124
This is just my opinion on unlined vs. lined fretless. I'm not judging anyone. My third bass was a 1976 Olympic White black pickguard unlined rosewood neck Fender Fretless Precision. I wanted the challenge of being able to master playing it without lines. My passion was jazz, which is hard enough, and if I could play walking lines to all the great jazz standards on an unlined Fretless, I felt that I would be able to experience an extreme sense of accomplishment due to the difficulty of the task.
I learned proper intonation by learning to play my fretless in a completely dark room. That eliminated the bad habit of looking down at the fretboard and increased my sense of muscle memory for where all the notes were on the fretboard.
It was, for me, one of my greatest and most fulfilling accomplishments in regards to being a bass guitarist.
 
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#125
When I first started playing fretless bass back in the late 80s, the lines were helpful, especially up high on the neck when playing chords, which luckily is something that I didn't really do all that often. But, after several months of steady and dedicated practice, the lines really didn't matter much, because I didn't need to look at the fingerboard so frequently.

My advice is to choose a bass that is comfortable, plays well and sounds good. Lines or no lines are just an individual aesthetic preference. Stick to playing one fretless bass (don't switch among several fretless basses), so you can develop muscle memory on your principal bass, and then... practice. Always practice: every day or as often as possible. Record yourself playing to a backing track and listen carefully. Then repeat the process and make any necessary adjustments. Keep working at it. In a few months, you will be decent enough to play in a band without making too many noticeable mistakes. There will still be situations, especially with busy runs up high on the neck, where you might be off by a little bit, but that too will be fixed with dedicated practice. Playing in tune takes a lot of practice. It is hard work and it takes time. Set reasonable expectations for yourself. It is a long-term journey, but you seem to have the fire in your belly, my friend. I have great confidence that you will succeed in your goal.

Sincerely,
Ben
 
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#126
Reiska said:
I play fretless with a jackass simandl approach. My bass is a converted fretless P and I find 1-2-3-4 painful in lower positions, I go 1-2-3 or 1-2-3-4 up from around 5th - 7th fret line. I quess this comes from playing the DB and it`s position approach.

I find lines helpful on a fretless bass guitar, as there are very little reference tools other than my ears. One thing about intonation in general is that there might be a difference between beeing in tune inside the music that I`m playing with others or along records and beeing in tune inside the instrument, in reference to open strings. With a DB it`s quite different as there are physical landmarks, my bodily references against them, and a mass of acoustic resonance that reacts physically to my beeing in or out of tune. The whole phenomenom of intonation is much more holistic with the DB than on a fretless electric, I quess that`s why I prefer a lined one.
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I started out jackass Simandl as well, then switched to a conservatory trained teacher. It was a real game changer for me in terms of overall musicianship.
 
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#130
Dr. Cheese said:
I could still see me getting a cheaper unlined like a Rockbass or used Warwick Corvette if I come across a great deal.
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I tried a lot of the Warwick fretlesses and they all sounded good - but most of the German Warwicks (not all) tend to have pretty clubby necks. I found an older 2008 Rockbass fretless (GC has one on the website right now for $349) that, I hate to say it, is the second nicest sounding fretless I have. Really a stunner. The ergonomics are not ideal, they tend to have just a slight amount of neck dive, but they are light (unusual for Warwicks and unusual for the post-2009 Rockbasses), no clublike neck, and it's a damn fine bass.
 
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#134
micguy said:
I started playing music at 8 years old - on violin. Which, last I checked, is an unlined fretless. With a really short scale, in a pitch range where everything is VERY audible. And you bow it, so the higher harmonics don't go away. It is, in the hands of an incompetent musician, a formidable tone weapon. The penalty for playing a note that's a little off finger placement wise on a violin is horrendous - in that pitch range, aaaargh!!!!

If they trust an 8 year old with an unlined fretless violin, I think any adult that isn't tone deaf should be able to play an unlined fretless bass (with sufficient practice).


But get position dots, just to be sure.
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When my daughter played Suzuki violin, I played also as part of the program. Playing a major scale or Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star was fairly easy and the violin did not have markers. I did have the advantage of a little experience on mandolin which is tuned in fifths like a violin.
 
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#136
arbiterusa said:
I tried a lot of the Warwick fretlesses and they all sounded good - but most of the German Warwicks (not all) tend to have pretty clubby necks. I found an older 2008 Rockbass fretless (GC has one on the website right now for $349) that, I hate to say it, is the second nicest sounding fretless I have. Really a stunner. The ergonomics are not ideal, they tend to have just a slight amount of neck dive, but they are light (unusual for Warwicks and unusual for the post-2009 Rockbasses), no clublike neck, and it's a damn fine bass.
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That’s great to know!:bassist:
 
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#138
Dr. Cheese said:
When my daughter played Suzuki violin, I played also as part of the program. Playing a major scale or Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star was fairly easy and the violin did not have markers. I did have the advantage of a little experience on mandolin which is tuned in fifths like a violin.
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My fingers and mandolins don't get along that well. It's probably just practice, but those little tiny increments are really tough for my CroMagnon hands to deal with.

As far as lined vs. unlined, I find that I need one reference point somewhere and that's about it. There's a dot of white-out at where the fifth fret would be if it had one on my upright. The fretless is more or less lined, but the lines are dark walnut on a dark-ish rosewood board, which means they are near impossible to see. the dots are in the wrong place, of course, since it's a de-fretted neck. But, with all that said, once you get yourself oriented, the rest is pretty much muscle memory. Not that I play the fretless electric much. The upright has become as close to a main instrument as I'll ever have. There's plenty of difference between the two, which makes going back and forth easier somehow.
 
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#139
JRA said:
what i don't get is this: why are cats who prefer unlined boards "snobs?" :laugh:
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Maybe it's because of the rude and intentionally disparaging remarks that compare lines to training wheels? :whistle:

I think most people don't care what everyone else plays, but there are a few loud, rude ones out there that think their stuff doesn't stink because they can play unlined fretless.
 
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