Double Bass Upright modelling used withEUB

[DoubleMIDI]

Your impulse responses are most likely the vibration of the body of a double bass after a short impulse-like impact. Convolution of such an impulse response with a real bridge foot pressure signal gives the original acoustical output of that instrument. But transducers are never ideal and distort the real pressure signal a bit, either linearly by reshaping the volume of certain frequency ranges or by introducing frequencies that are not part of the original signal.

That's the reason why the Tone Dexter works better but also why for optimal results it is limited to the same kind of pickup he was trained with.

 

[BigBeatNut]

Your impulse responses are most likely the vibration of the body of a double bass after a short impulse-like impact. Convolution of such an impulse response with a real bridge foot pressure signal gives the original acoustical output of that instrument. But transducers are never ideal and distort the real pressure signal a bit, either linearly by reshaping the volume of certain frequency ranges or by introducing frequencies that are not part of the original signal.

That's the reason why the Tone Dexter works better but also why for optimal results it is limited to the same kind of pickup he was trained with.

Errrm ... can someone point me to something I can read about the kind of impulses under discussion here ? Presumably we're not talking about sound samples ? Or are we ?

 

[madbanjoman]

I have been using the Zoom AC-2 for a while now and have been pretty happy with it. However, I can't help myself in getting new toys to try better. I've been looking at whether impulse responses could do a better job. I got a Mooer Radar cab sim pedal which can load custom impulse responses and then I got a set of upright bass impulse responses from 3 Sigma Audio (Upright Basses Archives - 3 Sigma Audio). I have to say that it sounds really good. There are 15 impulse responses in the pack and I'm usinbg he one that seems to add the most body resonance. My piezo output is pretty hot so I think could get away with just using this micro pedal on its own, but the input impedance is low at 100k ohms so might benefit from having a preamp in front of it. Here are some sound samples for 3 Sigma Audio's youtube account.


Still doesn't make a stick sound exactly like an upright, but it is the best tone I've got so far

I would love to hear your stick through this setup.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Errrm ... can someone point me to something I can read about the kind of impulses under discussion here ? Presumably we're not talking about sound samples ? Or are we ?

Impulse responses are the reaction of the object to an impulse. In case of a room reverb a shot as the short impulse is fired and the sound after the shot, usually at a different point or several points in the room is recorded as the impulse response.
In case of a resonant body of an instrument: a hard knock where the string is coupled to the bridge is made and the vibration of the body is captured with a microphone.

 

[joppo]

Errrm ... can someone point me to something I can read about the kind of impulses under discussion here ? Presumably we're not talking about sound samples ? Or are we ?

Yes - what DoubleMIDI said. So they are very short sound files (maybe one second long) and they sound like someone gently knocking on the bass. You can hear there is a little natural reverb, which is the 'flavour' the impulse is adding along with the resonance of the bass and the characteristics of the microphone(s) used.

 

[joppo]

I would love to hear your stick through this setup.

I'll record some samples over the weekend. I could also go one better - if you have a stick you're interested in knowing what it is like one, you could record a sample and I can run it through the pedal with some different IRs. PM me if you want to try that and we can work it out.

 

[BigBeatNut]

Impulse responses are the reaction of the object to an impulse. In case of a room reverb a shot as the short impulse is fired and the sound after the shot, usually at a different point or several points in the room is recorded as the impulse response.
In case of a resonant body of an instrument: a hard knock where the string is coupled to the bridge is made and the vibration of the body is captured with a microphone.

Yes - what DoubleMIDI said. So they are very short sound files (maybe one second long) and they sound like someone gently knocking on the bass. You can hear there is a little natural reverb, which is the 'flavour' the impulse is adding along with the resonance of the bass and the characteristics of the microphone(s) used.

 

[BigBeatNut]

I have been using the Zoom AC-2 for a while now and have been pretty happy with it. However, I can't help myself in getting new toys to try better. I've been looking at whether impulse responses could do a better job. I got a Mooer Radar cab sim pedal which can load custom impulse responses and then I got a set of upright bass impulse responses from 3 Sigma Audio (Upright Basses Archives - 3 Sigma Audio). I have to say that it sounds really good. There are 15 impulse responses in the pack and I'm usinbg he one that seems to add the most body resonance. My piezo output is pretty hot so I think could get away with just using this micro pedal on its own, but the input impedance is low at 100k ohms so might benefit from having a preamp in front of it. Here are some sound samples for 3 Sigma Audio's youtube account.



Still doesn't make a stick sound exactly like an upright, but it is the best tone I've got so far

So, to confirm, the 'hacked' Mooer Radar solution sounds better than the AC-2 ?

 

[joppo]

So, to confirm, the 'hacked' Mooer Radar solution sounds better than the AC-2 ?

I think so. The acoustic guitar presets sound fantastic on the AC-2. My stick through the upright bass setting sounds good, but it is way too bass heavy, so I have to use a lot of EQ to get it sounding good in a mix. I think the AC-2 uses impulse responses as well but can't find anything to confirm that. The 3 Sigma Audio ones just sound better to me. I've got a sample to load up.

 

[joppo]

I would love to hear your stick through this setup.

Here's a short recording to give an example. The first half is my stick bass straight into a Hi-Z channel on my mixer. No eq or processing at all - just the raw piezo tone. The second half is exactly the same recording, but with one of the impulse responses applied to it. There are 15 to choose from which gives quite a variation in tone. Still no eq, amps or processing. I just set the volume as close to the first half as possible.

 

[madbanjoman]

Here's a short recording to give an example. The first half is my stick bass straight into a Hi-Z channel on my mixer. No eq or processing at all - just the raw piezo tone. The second half is exactly the same recording, but with one of the impulse responses applied to it. There are 15 to choose from which gives quite a variation in tone. Still no eq, amps or processing. I just set the volume as close to the first half as possible.

Very nice, thank you! Your results are similar to what I am getting with the Tonedexter and my EUB. While the TD is a great choice if you have a DB that you want to sound as natural as possible, it’s only a good choice for EUB if you have a DB and similar pickups on both. If I didn’t have my TD I would be very tempted to go this route! Also thanks for the offer of running a sample of mine through your impulse pedal, that is very cool! I would take you up on it if was in the market for one, though honestly your sample above is convincing enough. That you can load up any impulse response into the pedal gives much more flexibility than the Zoom pedal.

 

[thumbslapper]

Jobbo -

which impulse file did you end up using out of the 15?

I've been playing with those same 3 Sigma IR files but inside Logic Pro X using Space Designer (which can load IR files), and am impressed enough to get a Mooer Radar on Reverb (should be coming soon). I'm playing a NS NXT 5a - it def makes it sound less like a fretless bass and more uprighty. I'd like to see more IR files out there to play with, but the 3 Sigma ones are a good start. They seem to help alot with bowing as well.

I'm trying to find the right reverb to give it a bit of air as if micing with nice condensor as well..

-carl

 

[joppo]

Jobbo -

which impulse file did you end up using out of the 15?

I've been playing with those same 3 Sigma IR files but inside Logic Pro X using Space Designer (which can load IR files), and am impressed enough to get a Mooer Radar on Reverb (should be coming soon). I'm playing a NS NXT 5a - it def makes it sound less like a fretless bass and more uprighty. I'd like to see more IR files out there to play with, but the 3 Sigma ones are a good start. They seem to help alot with bowing as well.

I'm trying to find the right reverb to give it a bit of air as if micing with nice condensor as well..

-carl

Hi Carl

I think there is lot of difference between the "a", "b" and "c", and smaller difference between the numbers within a series. I like the "a" series the best - that sounds the most upright like with my bass. I flip a bit between the five, but I think 2a and 3a are the two that i have settled on. I've got an NS WAV Cello as well, and I have the 3 Sigma Audio impulse responses. Again, the "a" series sounds the best to me. You probably already know, but the setup is important - having a low action sounds more like a fretless and a high action more like an upright.

Let me know what reverb you pick. I'm still trying to find the right one

 

[thumbslapper]

Jobbo -

did you see that 3Sigma has a update on the german bass IR files? they now include "Bass Guitar" IR's, which I think are to be used when playing a bass guitar or EUB... I haven't tried them yet but will soon. 3Sigma has 2 other upright bass IR packages as well. I tried some Taylor Guitar IR's but predictably they got a little jangly.

I have the Mooer Radar, and it is a powerful little box but not the most intuitive or easy to use with only 1 knob on it, but it seems like its something you setup once, not something you tweak during a set. There is no mix knob with the Radar, so you can't blend in clean with the IR response which would be useful.

I found a cheap TC BodyRez on reverb so picked it up, maybe the combo of the 2 will work.

 

[joppo]

Jobbo -

did you see that 3Sigma has a update on the german bass IR files? they now include "Bass Guitar" IR's, which I think are to be used when playing a bass guitar or EUB... I haven't tried them yet but will soon. 3Sigma has 2 other upright bass IR packages as well. I tried some Taylor Guitar IR's but predictably they got a little jangly.

I have the Mooer Radar, and it is a powerful little box but not the most intuitive or easy to use with only 1 knob on it, but it seems like its something you setup once, not something you tweak during a set. There is no mix knob with the Radar, so you can't blend in clean with the IR response which would be useful.

I found a cheap TC BodyRez on reverb so picked it up, maybe the combo of the 2 will work.

Thanks for letting me know - I hadn't seen those. I need to have a listen through some good speakers and see if I like them better that the German bass IRs.

I have been editing one of the impulse files tonight to see if I can improve on them and have been pleasantly surprised by the result. I worked on an Impulse file for my electric cello, but I'm sure it will work just as well with the EUB.

I recorded the dry signal of my cello into my DAW (I just put it through a buffer pedal which I have at the front of my chain to get the impedance right). I then loaded my favorite Impulse file into the DAW and send the signal out to a PA speaker. It sounded just like me playing through the Radar, so now I could fine tune the tone. I wanted to add some reverb in the Radar rather than through the PA, and I also wanted to EQ it a bit. The A series of impulses are a little boomy and the B series are a little thin. So I put a parametric EQ on, lowered the bass, gave a little cut at one frequency that I could see was getting a bit high in the lows, and gave a couple of little boosts in the highs. I then auditioned a whole heap of plate reverbs presets to get one I really liked. Once I had that sorted, it was a little boomy again so a quick tweak of the EQ and I was really happy with both the EQ and reverb.

The I loaded the impulse wav file into the DAW and applied the EQ and reverb to the impulse. I exported the impulse as a 24-bit wav at 44.1kHZ and the same length as the original. I loaded that into the Radar, and bingo! The updated EQ and reverb are now in my Radar patch.

Now I know it works, I might spend a bit more time working on it and also update an impulse for my EUB.

 

[thumbslapper]

Joppo -

That is insanely cool, i never really thought about spinning my own impulse files up. I tried something similiar - got a loop of my playing EUB (NXT5a) in Logic, then started applying IR's thru space designer until i liked what i heard...

i then took the first IR file (3Sigma german bass 4a), ran it thru a IR i found of a taylor guitar, and then ran it thru a very short Chromaverb verb i liked, and mixed that down (was 44.1k, 24 bit and 23.2ms long).

popped that into the Mooer Radar and it sounded pretty good! I need to tweak it some more, but was a pretty usable sound.

I also loaded the new German upright Bass IR meant for bass guitar, and those seem to give you alot more of a acoustic sound, I really like the 3a and 4a. The Mooer has EQ on it, so a high end roll off and a mid cut seemed to do it alot of good. I'll probably base my future experiments with these IRs.

I do like using the TC Bodyrez pedal along with it, but with with pizzicato only - with bowing it brings out some really nasty resonance that does not sound good. It also seems to have a low end cut that sucks alot of bass out, but is not as noticeable when plucking. I made a suggestion on the TC website to offer firmware for the bodyrez for upright bassists, but my guess is this market is *really* small...

Auditioning these IR files while playing thru a set of studio monitors seemed to help too (i have a pair of Focal CMS65s which are pretty detailed) as opposed to playing thru a bass amp, you could hear alot more.

Has anyone played with a matching eq? Logic has such a beast - you can give it a file of solo upright bass that you like the sound of, and then the file of your own playing, and it will create a custom eq curve that matches the first. I haven't tried it yet but it seems like it should work.... but then that led me down the rathole of "what is a solo bass tune i like the tone of". as soon as i figure that one out i'll try it..

thx tons Joppo for your posts, they have really opened my eyes to modern techniques we can use to make our EUB sound more acoustic-y (wether or not thats a good thing i realize is up to each of us, i see arguments on both sides)

-carl

 

[jdh3000]

I'm curious about this for my Eminence bass. I found this video on



More info about this video here.

And I also found this review on Sweetwater:

"I originally purchased and reviewed this to use with my NS Design NXT electric upright bass, and was really pleased with the upright bass modeling. Since then, I've found I can also use it for live work with the DPA d:vote 4099B - bass mic, which it also provides phantom power for, and at the same time run the Realist bass transducer pickup. No need for a mixer, as there are separate levels for each. It's limited in that there are no separate EQs, but somehow it all sounds incredible great. Plus effects!"

- Steve

You have the same setup as mine... I have an NXT and recently got a used Zoom A3
What settings on the A3 are(were) you using for use with the NXT?
Do you play it live?
Do you have and feedback issues and if so, is the feedback button working for you

I tried mine out a few weeks ago and could get rid of an enormous howling feedback.
I was using the bass modeling. I'm thinking I might be better off with a guitar mid or none at all.

I was using the Zoom A2 before and ig was working "ok". Before that I just used a Behringer acoustic pedal which did alright too. I was hust having higher hopes for this one. Maybe I did something wrong.


What's been your experience?

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

What's been your experience?

Sorry, I was just sharing stuff I found on the web. I never bought a Zoom A3 and I have since sold my Eminence EUB.

- Steve

 

[jdh3000]

Sorry, I was just sharing stuff I found on the web. I never bought a Zoom A3 and I have since sold my Eminence EUB.

- Steve

Oh I'm sorry, I misread that. Thanks!