Very elementary question re: scales

[Doc Blue]

I'll probably run out of life first, but I have worked on all those elements. I can't sing worth a crap although it does help internalize the sound of the notes. Will also listen to the radio and then find the notes on my bass.

One reason I like listening to 12-bar blues is the I, IV, V structure. Find the I chord root note, then the others fall right into place.

 

[retslock]

I haven’t read the entire post so apologies if this has been said already. Learning how to play scales using various different finger positions is an excellent aid in learning the fretboard. For example; using the 4th finger to start the C scale on the 8th fret moving to D on the A string using the 1st finger then E with the 3rd finger and so on. This approach will involve positional movement but that is also a benefit in knowing how to get to where you want to be to play whatever comes next. It involves some thought at first but gives you good facility with practice. Pilgrim’s diagram is very helpful with this process.

 

[Mushroo]

I knew I should have picked bongo drums instead of bass!

Good thing I have the whole rest of my life to work on this stuff.

I think it can be done in 1 month, learning 1 scale per day. And then you're done, forever. Remember, each scale is only 7 notes. So for example if you practice 30 minutes per day, that is over 4 minutes per note.

After the 1 month is up and you know all 24-30 scales (and their key signatures, etc.) then you have your entire life ahead of you to learn songs. And of course, songs are made using scales (99% of the songs we know and love can be notated with one of the 15 major or 15 minor key signatures that you just spent a month memorizing) so by learning songs, you will also be practicing scales at the same time (without actually "practicing scales"). @SteveCS gave a great example of this with the etude in post #43 above.

 

[Doc Blue]

Appreciate all your input Mushroo. Are you saying learning each of these 8 points should take about a month? #7 and #8 can be quite difficult for some of the musically challenged.

1. Be able to read each scale in standard music notation.
2. Be able to write each scale in standard music notation.
3. Understand the structure of each scale in half steps and whole steps.
4. Memorize the key signature that goes with each scale.
5. Memorize the note names of the notes in the scale.
6. Memorize the diatonic chords built on each degree of the harmonized scale.
7. Be able to sing each scale.
8. Be able to hear which scale is being used in a song.

 

[jj.833]

I've always considered myself to be "tone-deaf"

I think that noone really is tone-deaf or rhythm-deaf or whatever. Somebody got more talent, somebody less. Music needs such a wide pallete of talents, that lack in one thing doesn't mean overall lack at all. Somebody has great ears but very poor composition skills etc.
It works, in my opinion, like in this example: if you can't hear the tones well, then you can practise hearing; there's a point where even the most talented person's skills don't go further without practising. At this point, the one who learned how to educate him/herself can always go further, while the supertalented persons stop at this point, until they learn how to learn, which is harder to do with every year of age. So, lack in the natural talent might actually turn to be a good thing in time.

too many patterns to memorize. I realize no one actually suggested doing this but I'm the type of person who would just presume I had to and then fail miserably

In my experience, there are players who learn scale patterns and play them all over, playing wonderful solos very quickly ... then a few years come by, and they still play the same solos, which they don't like anymore, so they start to say 'groove is everything, I don't play solos'.
I never practised the scale patterns too much. Rather, I'm attempting to train the head, because the fingers will follow. After few years of playing, your fingers will play anything that your head can tell them to play; the head will be your ultimate limit.
(This said, I can confess that I'm actually practising a lot of scales. I try to think the names and pitches of the tones before I play them, mostly play to a drone tone or a playalong, and switch between keys after few minutes. It's rewarding hugely, from the time I learned enough theory to know what I'm doing.)

 

[SteveCS]

...@SteveCS gave a great example of this with the etude in post #43 above.

Well I've not had one of my hundreds of 'home-grown nik-naks' given the grand title of etude before, so thanks for the compliment.

 

[Mushroo]

Appreciate all your input Mushroo. Are you saying learning each of these 8 points should take about a month? #7 and #8 can be quite difficult for some of the musically challenged.

1. Be able to read each scale in standard music notation.
2. Be able to write each scale in standard music notation.
3. Understand the structure of each scale in half steps and whole steps.
4. Memorize the key signature that goes with each scale.
5. Memorize the note names of the notes in the scale.
6. Memorize the diatonic chords built on each degree of the harmonized scale.
7. Be able to sing each scale.
8. Be able to hear which scale is being used in a song.

I'm saying that if you sit down right now and spend a focused 30-60 minutes, you can learn to read, write, play, sing, hear, analyze, and harmonize the C Major scale. It's only 7 notes! Then tomorrow learn another scale, another one the next day, and so on, and in about 1 month you'll know all of the major and minor scales.

I think even young children can learn to sing and hear scales. Check out the song "Do Re Mi" from The Sound of Music for one such learning tool.

 

[tradernick]

I have a ton of material for bass students. Lots of exercises, scale stuff, theory and transcriptions. If you have trouble finding something, you can always ask and I can send you a pdf.

 

[pholli00]

Hi, TB

Just picked up the bass in January/February of this year, so please excuse the (probably) dumb question. I generally do a search first but I am at a loss how to even look for the answer to this so I'm reaching out for help.

Recently completed 8 weeks of lessons to get me started on the right path. Since I'm already beginning to feel overwhelmed, I decided to take a break from the lessons so I can better absorb what I've been taught before I get even more over my head.

Anyway, on to what I need clarification about, 'cause I'm really confused.

I recently learned major and minor scales.

My teacher taught me the following pattern for the major scales:

G|--|--------|---E---|---F---|-------|---G---|
D|--|--------|---B---|---C---|-------|---D--|
A|--|---F----|-------|---G---|--------|---A---|
E|--|---C----|-------|---D---|--------|---E---|

However, when I looked online to help reinforce what I learned, the major scale pattern is as follows:

G|--|---D----|-------|---E---|---F---|
D|--|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|
A|--|---E----|---F---|-------|---G---|
E|--|---------|---C---|-------|---D---|

This is a different pattern/shape, with the third closer to the headstock than the root.

Now, I totally understand that both of these are the C Major scale and I am in no way implying that my teacher was wrong. I'm sure there are loads of different patterns. I'm just wondering if there is there any pro or con to using one or the other, especially since I couldn't really find anything about the 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 2-3-5, 2-3-5 pattern I was taught.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help me in putting some pieces of the puzzle together. Hopefully what I'm asking is written clearly and the terminology is close enough.

As you develop and learn more, familiarity with any given pattern will make it easier for you to decide which finger you want or need to use (depending on where you are on the fingerboard). That's the theory anyway.

 

[Doc Blue]

.... It's only 7 notes! ...

I think even young children can learn to sing and hear scales. Check out the song "Do Re Mi" from The Sound of Music for one such learning tool.

My parents took me to see Sound of Music as a kid when it was first released, in 1965 LOL. I wish I could learn as well as a young kid.

I agree with most of your post. The hard part I have is hearing. Relative pitches in the scales are fine, absolute pitch not so much. Choosing say between C, C#, or B without a reference note is hard for me. Getting better, but still difficult. My internal reference is 60 cycle hum, right in-between Bb and B. Surely there must be other ways to internalize the sound?

 

[Mushroo]

My parents took me to see Sound of Music as a kid when it was first released, in 1965 LOL. I wish I could learn as well as a young kid.

I agree with most of your post. The hard part I have is hearing. Relative pitches in the scales are fine, absolute pitch not so much. Choosing say between C, C#, or B without a reference note is hard for me. Getting better, but still difficult. My internal reference is 60 cycle hum, right in-between Bb and B. Surely there must be other ways to internalize the sound?

Some people have perfect pitch and can hear the absolute pitch without any reference.

For most people (myself included) a more realistic goal is to be able to hear whether a song is major or minor, and then if we access to our basses to check the pitch, then we can figure out the specific key.

 

[Koshchei]

Hi, TB

Just picked up the bass in January/February of this year, so please excuse the (probably) dumb question. I generally do a search first but I am at a loss how to even look for the answer to this so I'm reaching out for help.

Recently completed 8 weeks of lessons to get me started on the right path. Since I'm already beginning to feel overwhelmed, I decided to take a break from the lessons so I can better absorb what I've been taught before I get even more over my head.

Anyway, on to what I need clarification about, 'cause I'm really confused.

I recently learned major and minor scales.

My teacher taught me the following pattern for the major scales:

G|--|--------|---E---|---F---|-------|---G---|
D|--|--------|---B---|---C---|-------|---D--|
A|--|---F----|-------|---G---|--------|---A---|
E|--|---C----|-------|---D---|--------|---E---|

However, when I looked online to help reinforce what I learned, the major scale pattern is as follows:

G|--|---D----|-------|---E---|---F---|
D|--|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|
A|--|---E----|---F---|-------|---G---|
E|--|---------|---C---|-------|---D---|

This is a different pattern/shape, with the third closer to the headstock than the root.

Now, I totally understand that both of these are the C Major scale and I am in no way implying that my teacher was wrong. I'm sure there are loads of different patterns. I'm just wondering if there is there any pro or con to using one or the other, especially since I couldn't really find anything about the 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 2-3-5, 2-3-5 pattern I was taught.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help me in putting some pieces of the puzzle together. Hopefully what I'm asking is written clearly and the terminology is close enough.

The second version is actually a Locrian with the B root left out (if you fancy three notes per string scale shapes). I tend to not use it as a major all that much because I like to keep a symmetrical number of notes per string per octave when it's possible to do. Less to think about technically when I'm trying to make music

All of this said, learning scales isn't going to be a huge amount of use to you as a bassist until you get some chord theory under your belt, or unless you play a lot of solos. My reasoning is that it doesn't become obvious as to how to apply a scale to a progression until you know more about what makes a chord a chord, and what inversions and different voicings do to the sound. By that time, you'll only need to account for the 2nd and 6th as the only intervals you're not already actively using.

 

[Slevage]

Yeah the ultimate goal is to play the proper notes in a way that sounds pleasing and works for YOU. So, use the teacher's advice as a guide, but not the law. Lots of famous bass players play "wrong".

Very true—— though it’s in a new student’s best interest to give “correct” fingering and technique an honest effort.

 

[BakerStreetMuse]

My job is getting in the way of my bass learning.

Agreed....as in CHORD TONES.

OP...glad to see that you are nailing the concept of scales, and realising that you can play them in whatever way suits YOU. Once you feel confident about scales, move swiftly on to chord tones, as these are what the bassist plays most of the time...not scales.

These will be your next step. Learn how they are derived from scales and learn how to harmonise the major scale.

Chord Tones Are Primary | Bass Chord Patterns | StudyBass

Definitely! It was like all the pieces just fell into place, and every single post is helping so much.
I think I was taught something about chord tones but just as an overview of sorts. But I'm definitely spending some time working on the scales and getting comfortable with that, as well as familiarity with the fretboard in general, before moving on to anything else.
Thanks for the link too! Bookmarked. (And once this thread dies down, it's being printed off for my study book.)

Exactly. In the article, there's a good, simple explanation why.

To OP: I'd ask the teacher about chord tones without hesitation. If you start to learn what tones you should be playing, you'll learn where they are on the fingerboard in no time and you'll end up learning two important things in one pass!
Good luck!

Yes, I will definitely put this on my list to bring up.
Thanks!

Patterns are all well and good, but as you have discovered for yourself there are many options. IME it is better not to get locked in to any one or other, but learn to stitch segments of them all together by shifting. Here is an example of ONE possibility, with suggested fingering, that extends your scale to 2 full octaves and covers four regions of the fingerboard. Red arrows indicate position shifts...

Try playing around the same thing with different fingering and shifting positions...

Work out for yourself where the shifts might be on the way back down...

I definitely agree with not getting locked into anything. I'm sure, with experience, I'll be able to work out what to use when (and hopefully without even having to think about it). Since I'm just at the very beginning, I'm glad to have a launching point with some easier hand positioning, while being aware that there are other ways to do things.

I had just finished typing that I was sort of following what the images are trying to show, getting the overall concept but not the details when it just "clicked" all of a sudden. Thanks for these!

Weird question but is there any particular reason to use the 1st and 4th fingers on that first bit, the C & D notes? Being only 2 frets apart, I would probably have used my 1st and 3rd (or, if I wasn't thinking about it, my 1st and 2nd). Just curious, and presuming I'm actually following what the images are illustrating.

 

[ThudThudThud]

I saw this the other day. I think it's a cool way of looking at things.
Is it high-brow, deep theory? No. But it's a nice quick way of seeing a pattern and knowing where you can go based on what's being played.

 

[Mushroo]

Weird question but is there any particular reason to use the 1st and 4th fingers on that first bit, the C & D notes? Being only 2 frets apart, I would probably have used my 1st and 3rd (or, if I wasn't thinking about it, my 1st and 2nd). Just curious, and presuming I'm actually following what the images are illustrating.

That's how most people play, using the 1st and 4th finger for a 2-fret stretch in the lower positions. But it is not "wrong" to use a different fingering that is more comfortable to you (especially if it sounds good). Geddy Lee for example favors your proposed 1st-3rd fingering, and he certainly knows what he's doing.

 

[BakerStreetMuse]

Yes, there's value to what you describe but OP's example is different. It just crosses the fretboard until there's no more board. No shifts to get the upper register. Looks suspiciously like a guitarist created it!

You know, it's really funny that you say this as my teacher mainly teaches guitar. He started with the bass when he was in high school but moved into guitar. Though he plays and teaches both, it seems he's primarily guitar.

Before I started, most of the advice I'd seen online was "get a teacher who is a bass guitarist." The problem is, there aren't a whole lot of bass teachers that were close enough to my home and traffic in my area is tremendously bad. I was afraid that having to drag myself through traffic once per week would affect my enthusiasm. I just wanted to get a feel for learning to play to see if it really was for me. (And I think it really is. I might never be good at it but I absolutely LOVE the instrument.)

Now that my initial batch of lessons are up and I know I'm committed to learning, I'm planning on looking around for a bass-only instructor. (Or at least one who is primarily bass.)

 

[BakerStreetMuse]

In addition to all the excellent advice above, here are 3 additional suggestions for fun ways to practice scales:

1. Play the scale on 1 string. For example, play the C Major scale using only your E string. Then do it again on the A, D, and G strings.
2. Play the scale as far up and down as you can, using only "1st position" (frets 1-4 and the open strings). For example, practice the C Major scale starting from the open low E and going up to B at the 4th fret of the G string. Or if you are practicing the Eb Major scale, start from low F at the 1st fret (because open E wouldn't fit the scale) and go up to Bb on the G string.
3. As exercise 2, except don't stop on the 4th fret, go as high as you can. For example, practice the C Major scale starting from open low E, and go all the way up to D at the 20th fret of the G string.

Now for the good news: There are only 12 major scales and 12 minor scales. So if you learn just 7 notes per day, you can learn all 24 scales in less than a month. You can learn 7 notes a day, right? If you can keep up that pace, then a month from now, you will be able to play songs in any of the 24 keys. Then you will never, ever have to practice scales again in your life, and you can focus your practice time on fun things, like learning your favorite songs or rehearsing for your upcoming gig.

(Footnote that it's actually more like 30 keys, 15 major and 15 minor, if you count twice the "enharmonic keys" like F# and Gb. But it still shouldn't take you more than a month to learn them all.)

Never try to "stretch as much as physically possible"! That's how you can hurt your hand. Nobody is saying "keep your fingers locked in these positions, even when they aren't being used." Rather, you should shift your entire hand to reach far-away notes. Your hand should always be in the most comfortable and best sounding position for the note you are actually currently playing, not some hypothetical distant notes that you aren't playing.

So for example, your first pattern from the original post, you could play the C with your 1st finger and the D with your 4th finger. That should be very comfortable as it's only a distance of 2 frets. Then move your entire hand to play the E at the 12th fret with your 4th finger. Or, alternately, play the C with your 1st finger, then shift to the 10th fret to play the D with your 1st finger and the E with your 4th finger. You could even, if you really wanted to, play the C with your 1st finger, then shift your entire hand to play the D with your 2nd finger, then finally shift your entire hand to play the E with your 4th finger.

It would be insane to try and stretch your hand so your unused 1st finger is glued to the 8th fret while your 4th finger is playing E at the 12th fret. Nobody plays like that. You'll never see a pro do that on stage with a band (outside of the wanker/shred genre).

You're absolutely right, I was meaning "as much as physically possible" for me - comfortably and not forcing it. If I fretted a note with my first finger and couldn't reach one with my 4th, I'd definitely shift my hand over after seeing if I could stretch a bit first. My fingers are used to decades of never having to move like this, so the stretching is working on flexibility as opposed to forcing positions and potential injury. It's a good thing to bring up.

But yeah, now that you mention it, I do think I was trying to keep my unused fingers essentially glued to the frets, mainly because I was trying not to trip over myself while fretting the notes. I think part of my problem is trying to move too fast.

Both of your posts have given me a lot to think about. The scale learning/practice exercises especially; I'm looking forward to trying those out over the weekend. I really appreciate the info!

 

[Pilgrim]

Dude this is clearly at the 7th fret.

Perhaps obvious to you, but not to me, which is why I asked the question.

And also not obvious to a few others who offered "likes" to my post.

Just because you got it doesn't mean everyone did. That's what questions are for!

 

[BakerStreetMuse]

It's the same pattern just started differently -- use the C and D as a focus place. One starts where you pick up the E and A back of the C and the other one picks up the E and A ahead of the C.

Same notes. The one on the bottom happens over 4 frets, the other one happens over 5 frets. Use the one you like the best.

Good luck.

Thank you!
I wanted to reply to your post because I had stumbled across some of your older posts and they were instrumental (har har) closing the gap in my understanding between my lessons and trying to absorb what I learned over the following week.

I think I even used your fret illustrations as a mental template when I posted my question. (I wish I had remembered to use the "~~" the way you did, so as not cause confusion with mine.)

Reading your posts in the General Instruction forum when I've ran across them has made so much of what I've been learning "click" for me. Even the books I have and internet searches I've done didn't help me as much as your posts. The books seem to jump from basic arithmetic right to calculus, losing me in the process, while what you have written over the years just made everything so understandable. I have a few threads saved and I'm going to print out your posts to aid in my studies. I'm still working my way through but I wanted to thank you for what you've posted.