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Very elementary question re: scales
- Thread starter BakerStreetMuse
- Start date
Thank you all so much. This was an incredible amount of information and I'll definitely have to take some time to read, re-read, and absorb everything. I wanted to respond to each personally but I really wasn't contributing a whole lot from my side, especially as the thread went on. I do appreciate every post and thank you all for taking the time to respond.
I'm also glad it's helped others who had the same question.
Gotcha. My lessons were one-finger-per-fret-every-4-frets so that part on the illustration stood out to me when I was trying to work out what was going on in the picture. Not in a right vs wrong way or anything, just as a curiosity.
Geddy Lee might do it the 1st-3rd way (which I never knew!) but I also figure that if most people play another (or "standard") way, then I kind of owe it to myself to try that - at least to see which one works better for me.
I'm also glad it's helped others who had the same question.
That's how most people play, using the 1st and 4th finger for a 2-fret stretch in the lower positions. But it is not "wrong" to use a different fingering that is more comfortable to you (especially if it sounds good). Geddy Lee for example favors your proposed 1st-3rd fingering, and he certainly knows what he's doing.
Gotcha. My lessons were one-finger-per-fret-every-4-frets so that part on the illustration stood out to me when I was trying to work out what was going on in the picture. Not in a right vs wrong way or anything, just as a curiosity.
Geddy Lee might do it the 1st-3rd way (which I never knew!) but I also figure that if most people play another (or "standard") way, then I kind of owe it to myself to try that - at least to see which one works better for me.
My teacher taught me the following pattern for the major scales:
G|--|--------|---E---|---F---|-------|---G---|
D|--|--------|---B---|---C---|-------|---D--|
A|--|---F----|-------|---G---|--------|---A---|
E|--|---C----|-------|---D---|--------|---E---|
However, when I looked online to help reinforce what I learned, the major scale pattern is as follows:
G|--|---D----|-------|---E---|---F---|
D|--|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|
A|--|---E----|---F---|-------|---G---|
E|--|---------|---C---|-------|---D---|
This is a different pattern/shape, with the third closer to the headstock than the root.
Now, I totally understand that both of these are the C Major scale and I am in no way implying that my teacher was wrong. I'm sure there are loads of different patterns. I'm just wondering if there is there any pro or con to using one or the other, especially since I couldn't really find anything about the 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 2-3-5, 2-3-5 pattern I was taught.
Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help me in putting some pieces of the puzzle together. Hopefully what I'm asking is written clearly and the terminology is close enough.
That first fingering can be useful for speed playing or working your way up the neck. One of my music school instructors referred to these as "extended fingering's" and IIRC it's a standard way for regular guitarists to learn.
Of course you should know as many ways as possible of playing intervals to really learn the fingerboard. I do this 1st example as a warmup, playing all 12 keys an octave and a half(my bass has 24 frets), this was inspired by a Frank Gambale instructional video
Notice how in this 2nd Octave you're starting the G Maj. with your pinky(4th). It's important to know this starting point as well when learning the neck.(I provided which fingers to use underneath, these are merely suggestions)
Here is the G Maj. across just the E string. This is sorta based off my upright lessons in the past(though upright players will usually finger 1,2,4 and use the 3rd to support the 4th except when you get higher up)
I believe that these alternate spots for the 5th and Octave are very important to know as well. Having these memorized will make it so you can stay in one position easier.
And finally these will help you come up with basslines and/or walk, etc.
Besides all the modes, knowing the number system in relation to scales/chords will take your playing to the next level.
Hi, TB
Just picked up the bass in January/February of this year, so please excuse the (probably) dumb question. I generally do a search first but I am at a loss how to even look for the answer to this so I'm reaching out for help.
Recently completed 8 weeks of lessons to get me started on the right path. Since I'm already beginning to feel overwhelmed, I decided to take a break from the lessons so I can better absorb what I've been taught before I get even more over my head.
Anyway, on to what I need clarification about, 'cause I'm really confused.
I recently learned major and minor scales.
My teacher taught me the following pattern for the major scales:
G|--|--------|---E---|---F---|-------|---G---|
D|--|--------|---B---|---C---|-------|---D--|
A|--|---F----|-------|---G---|--------|---A---|
E|--|---C----|-------|---D---|--------|---E---|
However, when I looked online to help reinforce what I learned, the major scale pattern is as follows:
G|--|---D----|-------|---E---|---F---|
D|--|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|
A|--|---E----|---F---|-------|---G---|
E|--|---------|---C---|-------|---D---|
This is a different pattern/shape, with the third closer to the headstock than the root.
Now, I totally understand that both of these are the C Major scale and I am in no way implying that my teacher was wrong. I'm sure there are loads of different patterns. I'm just wondering if there is there any pro or con to using one or the other, especially since I couldn't really find anything about the 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 2-3-5, 2-3-5 pattern I was taught.
Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help me in putting some pieces of the puzzle together. Hopefully what I'm asking is written clearly and the terminology is close enough.
I’m thinking two things here, one is to get your hands stretched out, and the second, to get you familiar with where the notes are on the fingerboard.
That said in today music, when are you ever going to use an octave an a half scale?
My job is getting in the way of my bass learning.
Ha! I don't even have a job anymore and you're way ahead of me.
My head is getting in the way of my bass learning.
Feels like I'm failing freshman Algebra all over again!
If your local community college has a music program, you might consider starting there. The teachers at those are usually the local pros.
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Clarification of an earlier post for WWHWWWH or 2212221, and reference to 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 fingering. This is from a Hal Leonard Bass Method book.
More on the fingering pattern. C major in this example. 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 for C-D, E-F-G, A-B-C.
More on the fingering pattern. C major in this example. 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 for C-D, E-F-G, A-B-C.
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Thank you for sharing these! I will definitely check them out over the weekend.
Ha! I don't even have a job anymore and you're way ahead of me.
My head is getting in the way of my bass learning.
Feels like I'm failing freshman Algebra all over again!
Ha! I'm grateful that I telecommute; it's easy for me to just go to the next room and pluck away for a few minutes when I need a little break. But I truly doubt I'm way ahead of you.
To me, it feels like I'm trying to learn another language. Which, I guess I kind of am. And I was never much good at that.
As @Mushroo already noted, some people just play that way - look up 'Simandl' to find out more. But in this case there is more going on in the exercise. Note that in the examples given, each shift lands on a lower finger number than it starts on. 4-1, 3-2, 3-1, etc. These examples are from a larger group (written in standard notation) that exercises all the other combinations, 2-1, 4-2, 4-3. There is another group of same finger shifts, one for higher-finger shifts such as 1-4 or 2-4, and another that works in some backwards and forwards extensions. The point is to exercise options and avoid becoming locked in.
Hi, TB...
G|--|--------|---E---|---F---|-------|---G---|
D|--|--------|---B---|---C---|-------|---D--|
A|--|---F----|-------|---G---|--------|---A---|
E|--|---C----|-------|---D---|--------|---E---|
However, when I looked online to help reinforce what I learned, the major scale pattern is as follows:
G|--|---D----|-------|---E---|---F---|
D|--|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|
A|--|---E----|---F---|-------|---G---|
E|--|---------|---C---|-------|---D---|
...
I just re-read your original post. Pattern 2 doesn't work for E major starting on the lowest note of a 4-string, making pattern 1 more suitable, except if you want to avoid the open A string for the 4th. Then you have sort of a butchered pattern to pick up the A at the 5th fret on the E string.
Probably why the experienced bass musicians say learn both patterns, learn the scale up the strings, and be able to change patterns and stitch them together on the fly. In other words, learn the notes in the scale and where they all are so they are conveniently played when needed.
E string scales are on day 3 of Mushroo's 30 day lesson plan, I looked ahead
. F major on day 4 has already been alluded to.
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Pattern one of the OP's question, is a 1st finger start shape. Pattern two is a 2nd finger start shape. There is another pattern you should also learn. The 4th finger start shape. Once you have done this for the Major Scale, you should apply this same concept to every other scale and mode, and even arpeggios, in the same fashion.
Tone = T Semitone = S
This is an exercise on paper first, then transfers to the instrument...do not do this on the instrument, so read it first, hear it second
See intervals for a major Scale as T-T-S-T-T-T-S
But understand that its range is T-T-S-T-T-T-S-T-T-S-T-T-T-S-T-T-S-T-T-T-S-T-T-S-T-T-T-S etc and in theory can run to infinity.
The same applies to notes they can be A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G etc and again in theory run to infinity.
A C scale is a perfect scale as it needs to sharps and flats to conform to the intervals of T-T-S-T-T-T-S to be considered a major scale.
General rule, to be considered a major scale the interval between the 7th and 8th note has to be a semitone, just accept that and run with it for now.
So if C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C is a perfect scale because it conforms to C-D as a tone then D-E as a tone, then E-F as a semitone, the we have the first three intervals of T-T-S. Add F-G as a tone, G-A as a tone, and A-B as a tone then we have the next part of T-T-T, which leaves us B-C which is that semitone we need to consider a scale Major and all intervals together are T-T-S-T-T-T-S.
So here is some Tetrachord theory to consider, take the C scale and cut it in half so it becomes C-D-E-F G-A-B-C, now take the upper half and use the G as a new root and make a new scale of;
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G, now is this a G Major scale? Look at the intervals...do they conform to T-T-S-T-T-T-S ?
If not then what do we have to do to make it conform?
The answer is alter the 7th degree, so alter the F because E-F is a semitone not a tone, and F-G is a tone not a semitone.
By adding a sharp (#) to the F we make it F# so it moves a semitone away from the E to create an interval that is a tone, and closer to the G to create an interval that is a semitone...now we have a G major scale with one sharp as its key,
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G
So what we done was construct a perfect scale which was C major because it did not need altering to conform with the semitone at the 7th to 8th degree to be considered a major scale.
Then we cut it in half and constructed a new scale from the 5th degree, which was G and we use a sharp on the 7th note of F to make it F# and conform.
So if we repeat the process on a G Major scale we get G-A-B-C D-E-F#-G and the new scale of;
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D so does it conform and if not how do we alter it to conform?
Now rather than go through all seven major scales let me explain that all i am doing is cutting each scale in half and creating a new scale from the 5th, i am cycling through 5ths. We hear about memorizing the cycle of 5ths, but rather than commit it to memory, just understand how they construction of scale works.
if you follow the process above to its natural conclusion you will have seven scales, each new one adds one sharp. and seven keys (C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#) till you have the key of C# Major using 7 sharps. So in this one simple theory we learn about scale construction, key construction, cycle of 5ths, and basic introduction to modes as intervals, after all we are using intervals to identify and alter our scales.
But there is more if we go back to the C scale C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C and cut it in half C-D-E-F G-A-B-C but rather that start on the 5th degree we start on the 4th degree to construct a new scale we get;
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F.
So using the same theory of T-T-S-T-T-T-S is this a major scale?
The 7th degree conforms as E-F is a semitone, this occurred naturally due to the arrangement of the intervals from the 4th degree.
But if we look at that 4th degree it does not conform as A-B is not a semitone and B-C is not a tone.
So if we alter the B and flatten it to Bb then the intervals are now correct as A-Bb is a semitone and Bb-C is a tone, so now we have the Fmajor scale using one flat in the key;
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F
Now again rather than explain them all i will say if you make a new scale from the 4th degree of F major, so in effect cycle 4ths, and do the sale for each new scale you construct you will end up with seven new scales, seven new keys etc....again in this one simple theory we learn about scale construction, key construction, cycle of 4ths, and basic introduction to modes as intervals, after all we are using intervals again to identify and alter our scales.
I know this may seem a lot but try this first, construct your scales first by cycling through the 5ths so you have;
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A
E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E
B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
Now alter them by adding sharps, do the same for the 4ths to add flats.
It is always better to learn then memorize, now if you are learning keys you can prove your conclusion by working it out, this is a deeper learning and the more you use this exercise the quicker you recognize keys and scales, not just by their notes, but by there keys and intervals.
Again this is an exercise on paper first, then transfers to the instrument...do not do this on the instrument, so read it first, hear it second
Best explanation I've ever read.
Been constructing major scales just by fitting the semitones to TTSTTTS all this time. G is easy to remember, then they get progressively harder as you demonstrated. About all I ever figured out was I could start to construct the right side of the circle by following the bass strings.
Been constructing major scales just by fitting the semitones to TTSTTTS all this time. G is easy to remember, then they get progressively harder as you demonstrated. About all I ever figured out was I could start to construct the right side of the circle by following the bass strings.
Possibly because tetrachord construction is a quite arcane, albeit effective, method. I was taught it (Royal School of Music) in the 80's but it no longer appears in the modern editions of the books I used.
In broader terms, major scales are invariably defined by the major 3rd and perfect 5th relative to tonic, not by the presence of the leading tone. For example, the mixolydian mode is a major scale, yet has no leading tone. Harmonic minor does have a leading tone, as does melodic minor ascending, yet no reasonable person would ever define them as major.
It is a somewhat useful tool, but I would go so far as to say that for the general level of this thread it just adds confusion. But that's just IMHO, so, as always, YMMV. That said, I wholeheartedly agree with @Fergie Fulton that this stuff, however you approach it, should be learned away from the instrument in the first instance.
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Hello, there are several ways to play a scale on the bass, that is, starting it with different fingers.
Here are some basic illustrations for the major and minor scale:
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I hope I helped you, good luck !
Hello, there are several ways to play a scale on the bass, that is, starting it with different fingers.
Here are some basic illustrations for the major and minor scale:
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Invalid Link Removed
I hope I helped you, good luck !
That's very helpful, thank you! I'm able to visualize it and see all the different variations and possibilities.
A lot of what's been posted in the thread is probably well beyond my skill level at this point, but I'm definitely keeping it all together to work through (slowly
) and hopefully, with a lot of work, it will all make sense soon enough.That there isn't any "wrong" way to do things (as long as you don't cause injury) is probably the most freeing thing I've learned so far.
I really appreciate everyone who took the time to answer my question. Just hitting "like" on the replies never seems like enough, especially for the longer responses which I'm sure took a lot of effort to post. It's so very much appreciated, even if a lot of it is over my head right now.
Nice graphics drumbass2.
BakerStreetMuse, you probably see this, but others might not. The scale is A minor with the tonic on the E string. Go to the 3rd note in A minor. C major starts with pattern 2 in your first post. An example of relative scales.
BakerStreetMuse, you probably see this, but others might not. The scale is A minor with the tonic on the E string. Go to the 3rd note in A minor. C major starts with pattern 2 in your first post. An example of relative scales.
