Very elementary question re: scales

[BAG]

The second pattern is what I used to get started and is easier for me..... but that just might only be that it is the first scale I learned. There's many ways to skin the bass cat... try a few and find what works for you.

 

[Cutter8]

Hi, TB

Just picked up the bass in January/February of this year, so please excuse the (probably) dumb question. I generally do a search first but I am at a loss how to even look for the answer to this so I'm reaching out for help.

Recently completed 8 weeks of lessons to get me started on the right path. Since I'm already beginning to feel overwhelmed, I decided to take a break from the lessons so I can better absorb what I've been taught before I get even more over my head.

Anyway, on to what I need clarification about, 'cause I'm really confused.

I recently learned major and minor scales.

My teacher taught me the following pattern for the major scales:

G|--|--------|---E---|---F---|-------|---G---|
D|--|--------|---B---|---C---|-------|---D--|
A|--|---F----|-------|---G---|--------|---A---|
E|--|---C----|-------|---D---|--------|---E---|

However, when I looked online to help reinforce what I learned, the major scale pattern is as follows:

G|--|---D----|-------|---E---|---F---|
D|--|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|
A|--|---E----|---F---|-------|---G---|
E|--|---------|---C---|-------|---D---|

This is a different pattern/shape, with the third closer to the headstock than the root.

Now, I totally understand that both of these are the C Major scale and I am in no way implying that my teacher was wrong. I'm sure there are loads of different patterns. I'm just wondering if there is there any pro or con to using one or the other, especially since I couldn't really find anything about the 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 2-3-5, 2-3-5 pattern I was taught.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help me in putting some pieces of the puzzle together. Hopefully what I'm asking is written clearly and the terminology is close enough.

I have wondered about the same thing but never asked the question, so I'm glad you did. Some of the responses are quite helpful, and it's good to know there isn't a "right way" to approach it that I'm not grasping.

 

[Wsscal]

I am a little different where I dont really practice shapes but in notes.

The benefit of getting to know the notes is that it will give you millions of options to approach to the next note/chord in bassline construction. It is a good thing to do to familiarise shapes as it aids a lot of people in playing but dont get bogged down by any shapes. All the best!

 

[nnnnnn]

I do think that the second one might serve me a bit better since my hands are on the small side. I'll try to keep both in mind, it can't hurt, I suppose.

Well it can physically hurt you if you're constantly stretching beyond what is comfortable. Of course there will be some discomfort just because it's all pretty new to you, but don't persist with any given pattern if it is painful.

I find the wider fretting-hand stretch required for the first pattern uncomfortable on the bass, at least on the lower frets, though I guess it's fine starting up at the 8th fret for C major. I do happily use it anywhere on the neck when playing guitar rather than bass.

Having said that, wider stretches are easier with good hand position (thumb behind the neck, not wrapped around the top, etc.), and keeping youry hand relaxed and moving it side to side a little helps you reach the notes more easily than keeping your hand fixed and trying to do it just by stretching fingers.

Scales are good for developing dexterity in both hands, and for learning where the notes are on the neck and which notes belong to different keys, but in the context of a song you're not likely to need to play the full scale straight up and down, and you can make use of slides to get to the required notes, you don't have to stay locked into any particular position or pattern.

 

[tradernick]

just wondering if there is there any pro or con to using one or the other,

I generally teach the second way to my students. If and when you start to explore walking bass lines (I would strongly recommend it but I want you to go with what your teacher tells you) that pattern for the major scale lets you play the following bass line

C-E-G-A-Bb-A-G-E

a bit more comfortably when you use your middle finger in the left hand to play the ‘C’ and play ‘one finger per fret’ as tjh described earlier, especially playing closer to the nut. Bass lines with arpeggiated shapes like this are quite common in many musical styles. Don’t want to get too technical with you but I think knowing the second shape and having it down is really worth while.

 

[jj.833]

I'd add two things that didn't sound here yet.

- practise schemes, but keep in mind that your ultimate goal in this is not to learn fingering schemes, but tones. Try to memorize 'this is C' instead of 'C is played on 8th fret with 2nd finger'. Why? So that you can use any C on the bass any time you need to use it. Later you'll probably learn that there are so many schemes that there's no chance to memorize them creatively. Watch Jaco Pastorius Modern Electric Video, to see what all becames possible if you are 'thinking tones'. I'm not a huge fan on Jaco myself, but most of the things he says is very clever and quite different from what I occasionaly hear from fellow bass players.

- as I am 40 now, my body starts to force me to play painlessly. I mostly use fingerings that are most comfortable for the situation. When the wrist start to hurt, I immediately look for more comfortable way. This is a good way to learn from the start I think, because the less you need to focus on your body, the more you can focus on the music. Practise your stretching, but also learn a baseball bat approach.

 

[fearceol]

practise schemes, but keep in mind that your ultimate goal in this is not to learn fingering schemes, but tones.

Agreed....as in CHORD TONES.

OP...glad to see that you are nailing the concept of scales, and realising that you can play them in whatever way suits YOU. Once you feel confident about scales, move swiftly on to chord tones, as these are what the bassist plays most of the time...not scales.

These will be your next step. Learn how they are derived from scales and learn how to harmonise the major scale.

Chord Tones Are Primary | Bass Chord Patterns | StudyBass

 

[jj.833]

Agreed....as in CHORD TONES.

Exactly. In the article, there's a good, simple explanation why.

To OP: I'd ask the teacher about chord tones without hesitation. If you start to learn what tones you should be playing, you'll learn where they are on the fingerboard in no time and you'll end up learning two important things in one pass!
Good luck!

 

[wishforbass]

Hi, TB

Just picked up the bass in January/February of this year, so please excuse the (probably) dumb question. I generally do a search first but I am at a loss how to even look for the answer to this so I'm reaching out for help.

Recently completed 8 weeks of lessons to get me started on the right path. Since I'm already beginning to feel overwhelmed, I decided to take a break from the lessons so I can better absorb what I've been taught before I get even more over my head.

Anyway, on to what I need clarification about, 'cause I'm really confused.

I recently learned major and minor scales.

My teacher taught me the following pattern for the major scales:

G|--|--------|---E---|---F---|-------|---G---|
D|--|--------|---B---|---C---|-------|---D--|
A|--|---F----|-------|---G---|--------|---A---|
E|--|---C----|-------|---D---|--------|---E---|

However, when I looked online to help reinforce what I learned, the major scale pattern is as follows:

G|--|---D----|-------|---E---|---F---|
D|--|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|
A|--|---E----|---F---|-------|---G---|
E|--|---------|---C---|-------|---D---|

This is a different pattern/shape, with the third closer to the headstock than the root.

Now, I totally understand that both of these are the C Major scale and I am in no way implying that my teacher was wrong. I'm sure there are loads of different patterns. I'm just wondering if there is there any pro or con to using one or the other, especially since I couldn't really find anything about the 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 2-3-5, 2-3-5 pattern I was taught.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help me in putting some pieces of the puzzle together. Hopefully what I'm asking is written clearly and the terminology is close enough.

Simple answer yes ,both may look same but have a little bit different feel because the length and difference of string wideness.
Sometimes stretch position help you because easier access other times second finger help you .
You should know both of them and your mind will use it in near future .

 

[dkelley]

There is no "wrong" if the notes you're playing are right.

After learning one way... try harder fingerings. There are times you'll need them.

 

[SteveCS]

Hi, TB

Just picked up the bass in January/February of this year, so please excuse the (probably) dumb question. I generally do a search first but I am at a loss how to even look for the answer to this so I'm reaching out for help.

Recently completed 8 weeks of lessons to get me started on the right path. Since I'm already beginning to feel overwhelmed, I decided to take a break from the lessons so I can better absorb what I've been taught before I get even more over my head.

Anyway, on to what I need clarification about, 'cause I'm really confused.

I recently learned major and minor scales.

My teacher taught me the following pattern for the major scales:

G|--|--------|---E---|---F---|-------|---G---|
D|--|--------|---B---|---C---|-------|---D--|
A|--|---F----|-------|---G---|--------|---A---|
E|--|---C----|-------|---D---|--------|---E---|

However, when I looked online to help reinforce what I learned, the major scale pattern is as follows:

G|--|---D----|-------|---E---|---F---|
D|--|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|
A|--|---E----|---F---|-------|---G---|
E|--|---------|---C---|-------|---D---|

This is a different pattern/shape, with the third closer to the headstock than the root.

Now, I totally understand that both of these are the C Major scale and I am in no way implying that my teacher was wrong. I'm sure there are loads of different patterns. I'm just wondering if there is there any pro or con to using one or the other, especially since I couldn't really find anything about the 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 2-3-5, 2-3-5 pattern I was taught.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help me in putting some pieces of the puzzle together. Hopefully what I'm asking is written clearly and the terminology is close enough.

Patterns are all well and good, but as you have discovered for yourself there are many options. IME it is better not to get locked in to any one or other, but learn to stitch segments of them all together by shifting. Here is an example of ONE possibility, with suggested fingering, that extends your scale to 2 full octaves and covers four regions of the fingerboard. Red arrows indicate position shifts...

Try playing around the same thing with different fingering and shifting positions...

Work out for yourself where the shifts might be on the way back down...

 

[3bc]

The fingering your teacher gave you is less “standard” but will probably help you learn the fingerboard more completely than the “standard” fingering. Gives you a better sense of the more important intervals as you start playing more bass lines that require movement up and down the neck. IMO anyway. I knew the standard method down pat, but it wasn’t until I started studying 3 and 4 note per string scales that I got much more comfortable with the fingerboard and intervals.

 

[InhumanResource]

Hi, TB

Just picked up the bass in January/February of this year, so please excuse the (probably) dumb question. I generally do a search first but I am at a loss how to even look for the answer to this so I'm reaching out for help.

Recently completed 8 weeks of lessons to get me started on the right path. Since I'm already beginning to feel overwhelmed, I decided to take a break from the lessons so I can better absorb what I've been taught before I get even more over my head.

Anyway, on to what I need clarification about, 'cause I'm really confused.

I recently learned major and minor scales.

My teacher taught me the following pattern for the major scales:

G|--|--------|---E---|---F---|-------|---G---|
D|--|--------|---B---|---C---|-------|---D--|
A|--|---F----|-------|---G---|--------|---A---|
E|--|---C----|-------|---D---|--------|---E---|

However, when I looked online to help reinforce what I learned, the major scale pattern is as follows:

G|--|---D----|-------|---E---|---F---|
D|--|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|
A|--|---E----|---F---|-------|---G---|
E|--|---------|---C---|-------|---D---|

This is a different pattern/shape, with the third closer to the headstock than the root.

Now, I totally understand that both of these are the C Major scale and I am in no way implying that my teacher was wrong. I'm sure there are loads of different patterns. I'm just wondering if there is there any pro or con to using one or the other, especially since I couldn't really find anything about the 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 2-3-5, 2-3-5 pattern I was taught.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help me in putting some pieces of the puzzle together. Hopefully what I'm asking is written clearly and the terminology is close enough.

Both are correct, my only issue with it is that scales should be practiced to the octave (C in this case) whether doing one or two octaves. I disagree with ending the exercise in the middle of the scale.

 

[fearceol]

my only issue with it is that scales should be practiced to the octave (C in this case) whether doing one or two octaves. I disagree with ending the exercise in the middle of the scale.

To each their own, but I found "Pacman's Sure-Fire Scale Practice Method" to be more practical and beneficial in really HEARING the scale.

Pacman's sure-fire scale practice method

 

[bholder]

Both are correct, my only issue with it is that scales should be practiced to the octave (C in this case) whether doing one or two octaves. I disagree with ending the exercise in the middle of the scale.

While I kind of agree, I think there's also a lot of value practicing scales to the limits of the instrument, so you don't miss any scale tone notes that happen to fall above or below the "last available root" in that direction. Well, I don't practice so much on the top end this way, honestly, but on the bottom end, sure.

 

[InhumanResource]

Sure, singing along will help regardless of how you wasn't to think about the "pattern". I don't see it as any more or less practical than typical two octave up and down practice though.

 

[InhumanResource]

While I kind of agree, I think there's also a lot of value practicing scales to the limits of the instrument, so you don't miss any scale tone notes that happen to fall above or below the "last available root" in that direction. Well, I don't practice so much on the top end this way, honestly, but on the bottom end, sure.

Yes, there's value to what you describe but OP's example is different. It just crosses the fretboard until there's no more board. No shifts to get the upper register. Looks suspiciously like a guitarist created it!

 

[BakerStreetMuse]

.. the second illustration with the C on the 8th fret is the finger pattern I started with, and use all the time unless a song requires something different for ease of access … in essence you are starting the pattern (root note) with your middle finger, and play one finger per fret without moving the hand (depends on hand size probably, mine are huge) .. and to transition to the minor scale, the pattern uses the pointer finger on the root note … I always teach beginners to start fingering this way, as OP said, it can be overwhelming with OPTIONS … keep it simple to start, and once ingrained in your mind, then it is time to expand on options … it is whole world of 'oh wow!' moments when shown 'alternatives' when they are actually ready for them … for now, pick one and stick to it, you will know when it is time to expand, everybody advances at a different rate …

OK, I can see this on the fretboard chart. My hands are pretty small (for an adult, lol) so I'm thinking that the second one would be better for me to get a handle on as a primary major scale pattern, only having to reach across 4 frets as opposed to the 5 in the one I was taught. I just can't do the first one without a lot of movement and I don't see that improving a whole lot even when my finger reach/range eventually stretches out as much as physically possible.

When I practice tonight, I'll have to try it out to see if it's more comfortable. I feel like I'm having my first "oh wow!" moment. Thanks!

 

[Mushroo]

In addition to all the excellent advice above, here are 3 additional suggestions for fun ways to practice scales:

1. Play the scale on 1 string. For example, play the C Major scale using only your E string. Then do it again on the A, D, and G strings.
2. Play the scale as far up and down as you can, using only "1st position" (frets 1-4 and the open strings). For example, practice the C Major scale starting from the open low E and going up to B at the 4th fret of the G string. Or if you are practicing the Eb Major scale, start from low F at the 1st fret (because open E wouldn't fit the scale) and go up to Bb on the G string.
3. As exercise 2, except don't stop on the 4th fret, go as high as you can. For example, practice the C Major scale starting from open low E, and go all the way up to D at the 20th fret of the G string.

Now for the good news: There are only 12 major scales and 12 minor scales. So if you learn just 7 notes per day, you can learn all 24 scales in less than a month. You can learn 7 notes a day, right? If you can keep up that pace, then a month from now, you will be able to play songs in any of the 24 keys. Then you will never, ever have to practice scales again in your life, and you can focus your practice time on fun things, like learning your favorite songs or rehearsing for your upcoming gig.

(Footnote that it's actually more like 30 keys, 15 major and 15 minor, if you count twice the "enharmonic keys" like F# and Gb. But it still shouldn't take you more than a month to learn them all.)

 

[Mushroo]

OK, I can see this on the fretboard chart. My hands are pretty small (for an adult, lol) so I'm thinking that the second one would be better for me to get a handle on as a primary major scale pattern, only having to reach across 4 frets as opposed to the 5 in the one I was taught. I just can't do the first one without a lot of movement and I don't see that improving a whole lot even when my finger reach/range eventually stretches out as much as physically possible.

When I practice tonight, I'll have to try it out to see if it's more comfortable. I feel like I'm having my first "oh wow!" moment. Thanks!

Never try to "stretch as much as physically possible"! That's how you can hurt your hand. Nobody is saying "keep your fingers locked in these positions, even when they aren't being used." Rather, you should shift your entire hand to reach far-away notes. Your hand should always be in the most comfortable and best sounding position for the note you are actually currently playing, not some hypothetical distant notes that you aren't playing.

So for example, your first pattern from the original post, you could play the C with your 1st finger and the D with your 4th finger. That should be very comfortable as it's only a distance of 2 frets. Then move your entire hand to play the E at the 12th fret with your 4th finger. Or, alternately, play the C with your 1st finger, then shift to the 10th fret to play the D with your 1st finger and the E with your 4th finger. You could even, if you really wanted to, play the C with your 1st finger, then shift your entire hand to play the D with your 2nd finger, then finally shift your entire hand to play the E with your 4th finger.

It would be insane to try and stretch your hand so your unused 1st finger is glued to the 8th fret while your 4th finger is playing E at the 12th fret. Nobody plays like that. You'll never see a pro do that on stage with a band (outside of the wanker/shred genre).