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Victor Wooten: There are 30 keys

#121
Les Fret said:
You have all 12 half steps. Each can have two names=24. Then double it for minor makes 48.
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You didn't think this through, did you. For the notes A, D, and G, what are your two names please?

By your logic, each note should have three names (not two) because in addition to the note's actual name, you can flat down to it from above or sharp up to it from below. For example the note A can also be called G## or Bbb. The note Bb can also be called A# or Cbb. Et cetera.

So by your (flawed) logic, there are actually 72 keys (since each of the 12 notes has 3 possible names, that's 36 major keys, then another 36 for the minor keys).

6 pages in and I still agree with Victor Wooten: By music-theory convention, double-sharps and double-flats are avoided in key signatures, giving us a total of 30 commonly-used keys (out of the infinite number of theoretical keys).
 
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#122
Les Fret said:
Not really. With my 48 key example I don’t mix sharps and flats. Only using double sharps and double flats. Just like in that video mentionted in post #6. Nothing serial or atonal about that.
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Double flats or sharps are quite frequent as accidentals. Their use in a key signature is non-standard; I have never seen a score using this.

On the other hand, all 15 standard key signatures are found routinely in music, including the "heavy" key signatures, as nicely illustrated by Febs above.
 
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#125
Mushroo said:
You didn't think this through, did you. For the notes A, D, and G, what are your two names please?

By your logic, each note should have three names (not two) because in addition to the note's actual name, you can flat down to it from above or sharp up to it from below. For example the note A can also be called G## or Bbb. The note Bb can also be called A# or Cbb. Et cetera.

So by your (flawed) logic, there are actually 72 keys (since each of the 12 notes has 3 possible names, that's 36 major keys, then another 36 for the minor keys).

6 pages in and I still agree with Victor Wooten: By music-theory convention, double-sharps and double-flats are avoided in key signatures, giving us a total of 30 commonly-used keys (out of the infinite number of theoretical keys).
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You take it too seriously. I was just joking a bit because many posts got a bit over analytical.

You got me on the A G and D. But the rest of the notes can have two names without it being double sharps or flats. So that would make it 36 keys.

I know that key signatures can’t have double sharps or double flats. But we are talking about keys not key signatures. Just like in the Neeley video where he mentioned G# major.
 
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#126
Les Fret said:
But we are talking about keys not key signatures.
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The distinction between "key" vs. "key signature" being what exactly, in your mind?

If you're arguing what I think you're arguing, that "key signatures" are something written on the page vs. "keys" being something we hear with our ears, then from that limited perspective, you might as well say there are only 24 keys (12 major and 12 minor) since our ears hear 12 pitches in the chromatic scale.

Which brings us full circle to the Victor Wooten video.

I don't like Vic's arrogant "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude. I wish he'd said something like "24 and 30 are both correct answers, depending on your perspective, let me explain why." It would have made it a better video in my opinion. I love Vic but I think he's a better player than teacher.
 
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#127
Mushroo said:
The distinction between "key" vs. "key signature" being what exactly, in your mind?
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A key is not the same as a key signature. A key signature can’t have double flats but a key can. If a piece in C# major modulates to the fifth it will be in G# major. The key signature is not changing in this case but the key is. Again check the video in post #6.
 
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#136
Les Fret said:
A key is not the same as a key signature. A key signature can’t have double flats but a key can. If a piece in C# major modulates to the fifth it will be in G# major. The key signature is not changing in this case but the key is. Again check the video in post #6.
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They can, and sometimes (though rarely) do. The 3rd movement of Ewald's Brass Quintet Op. 8 is written in F♭ major (with B in the key signature), for example.
 
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#137
Pacman said:
They can, and sometimes (though rarely) do. The 3rd movement of Ewald's Brass Quintet Op. 8 is written in F♭ major (with B in the key signature), for example.
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Yes. Interesting! I guess nothing is really 'forbidden' for composers...maybe in some theory books it is said it is forbidden.

I also found this on wiki: In very few cases, theoretical keys are in fact used directly, putting the necessary double-accidentals in the key signature. The final pages of John Foulds' A World Requiem are written in G♯ major (with F in the key signature), and the third movement of Victor Ewald's Brass Quintet Op. 8 is written in F♭ major (with B in the key signature).
 
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#138
Spin Doctor said:
You guys are something else. 130 replies and comments on something you really don't care about.
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My impression is some of us care, and others appear to be trolling those who care.

The standard convention in Western music theory is there are 30 written keys. The rules for the convention are not complicated or mysterious in any way, and as @Febs has shown these keys exist in the wild.

If you want to make a distinction between keys and key signatures, then I agree with @Mushroo : There are 24 keys and 30 key signatures. I believe it's actually taught this way in some schools.

Nothing says you have to comply with convention, and nothing is stopping anyone from practicing in, or otherwise using theoretical keys, and yes you may come across them occasionally in the wild. Also, nothing is stopping anyone from working only in a few of the most common keys, or totally disregarding theory and written music, and playing exclusively by ear. However, if you want to be a skilled professional reading musician, IMHO it's wise to be prepared to work in all 30 written conventional key signatures.

IMHO this has been beat beyond the point of amusement:

upload_2022-1-16_13-46-50.jpeg
 
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