Victor Wooten: There are 30 keys

[Mushroo]

Great thread - love reading this discussion. I'm not at a level to contribute much but I basically can follow along. Here's a question - guitarist shows up tuned down a half step and plays in (for him) E. Are you in Eb or D#? Or does it not matter.

If you are tuned down a half step and playing in a song in E then the convention is to call it key of E. For example if the chord progression is I IV V then you call the chords E, A, B (not Eb, Ab, Bb or D#, G#, A#). You can easily verify I am correct by purchasing some quality Jimi Hendrix transcriptions; Hendrix tuned down a half-step but his music is usually transcribed in the key of E (not Eb or D#).

Vic says that modes aren’t keys. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen this video. I came away with this question:

Aeolian mode is not sonically distinct from natural minor, therefore is it not true that at least one mode is a key?

Ionian mode: same question.

There are oodles of folk tunes in Dorian and Myxolidian modes that NEVER harken to a tonic one step down or a fifth down, respectively.

I agree with Vic: Modes are not keys. You can play any mode in any key. You can play any chord in any key.

We name the key based on the tonic. If the tonic is C Major then your song is in the key of C Major. If the tonic is C Minor then your song is in the key of C Minor.

It doesn't matter if our song uses 15 exotic modes and 72 complex jazz chords: If the tonic is C Major then our song is in the key of C Major.

Songs take us on a journey. They call it a chord "progression" not a chord "staycation." The key of a song is not determined by where the journey takes you; but rather by where the journey brings you back home to.

The #1 biggest beginner mistake with understanding the key of a song, is to make wrong assumptions like, "There is an E7 chord in measure 43, and E7 contains a G# that is not diatonic to C Major, therefore our song cannot be in the key of C Major, it has to be in a mode. What mode is C D E F G# A B?"

Any ideas about a key signature to "represent" Blues Harmony?

For C Major blues, use C Major key signautre.
For C Minor blues, use C Minor key signature.
(et cetera)

The key of a song is determined by its tonic (not its chord progression!)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

For C Major blues, use C Major key signautre.
For C Minor blues, use C Minor key signature.
(et cetera)

The key of a song is determined by its tonic (not its chord progression!)

Don Kasper has "installed" that question in my brain a few years ago.
What is the key signature of Aminor???

 

[Febs]

If you are tuned down a half step and playing in a song in E then the convention is to call it key of E. For example if the chord progression is I IV V then you call the chords E, A, B (not Eb, Ab, Bb or D#, G#, A#). You can easily verify I am correct by purchasing some quality Jimi Hendrix transcriptions; Hendrix tuned down a half-step but his music is usually transcribed in the key of E (not Eb or D#).

This is generally true if you're dealing only with other guitarists or bass players using the same tuning, but not if you're dealing with other instrumentalists. If you have a piano player in the band, you're going to say that song is in Eb. Add a tenor sax player and you're going to say it's in concert Eb, or his (or her) F.

 

[Mushroo]

This is generally true if you're dealing only with other guitarists or bass players using the same tuning, but not if you're dealing with other instrumentalists. If you have a piano player in the band, you're going to say that song is in Eb. Add a tenor sax player and you're going to say it's in concert Eb, or his (or her) F.

Well said!

 

[BBQisgood]

Thank you both for thoughtful and thorough answers and the time you put into them.

I asked about a couple of specific points that still aren’t worked out.

Your question is about the difference between modal and tonal music.

In short, "tonal" music (in the sense of "common Practice tonal harmony") is music that is constructed upon elaborations of the perfect authentic cadence (V-I in major, or V-i in minor) and few other kinds of cadences such as the half cadence I-V.

By contrast, modal music is built upon the sound color of a mode (most frequently Dorian or Mixolydian, but sometimes Lydian or Aeolian), and has a completely different type of harmony. Feequently it stays on one chord or alternates between 2 chords.

Both tonal and modal music are in a given key, characterized by its key signature. Tonal music very frequently modulates to another key. Modal music seldom does. Because ionian mode has the same notes as the major scale, ionian is not much used as a mode for modal music.

Understood and thanks for the great answer.

If you are tuned down a half step and playing in a song in E then the convention is to call it key of E. For example if the chord progression is I IV V then you call the chords E, A, B (not Eb, Ab, Bb or D#, G#, A#). You can easily verify I am correct by purchasing some quality Jimi Hendrix transcriptions; Hendrix tuned down a half-step but his music is usually transcribed in the key of E (not Eb or D#).



I agree with Vic: Modes are not keys. You can play any mode in any key. You can play any chord in any key.

We name the key based on the tonic. If the tonic is C Major then your song is in the key of C Major. If the tonic is C Minor then your song is in the key of C Minor.

It doesn't matter if our song uses 15 exotic modes and 72 complex jazz chords: If the tonic is C Major then our song is in the key of C Major.

Songs take us on a journey. They call it a chord "progression" not a chord "staycation." The key of a song is not determined by where the journey takes you; but rather by where the journey brings you back home to.

The #1 biggest beginner mistake with understanding the key of a song, is to make wrong assumptions like, "There is an E7 chord in measure 43, and E7 contains a G# that is not diatonic to C Major, therefore our song cannot be in the key of C Major, it has to be in a mode. What mode is C D E F G# A B?"



For C Major blues, use C Major key signautre.
For C Minor blues, use C Minor key signature.
(et cetera)

The key of a song is determined by its tonic (not its chord progression!)

@Mushroo I have learned heaps from you over the years. I appreciate the answer. But, you have given a good definition of a tonic and its relationship to and defining characteristic of a key. I do not see why “modes aren’t keys” as a blanket statement is always true.


Before I watched Vic’s video, I’d have said that modes are different from keys but can serve as a key, and that the distinction depends on the context. Right now, that’s still my attitude, I guess.

@Papageno In my mind, it doesn’t matter that modal music sometimes alternates between two chords. It doesn’t change the fact that there are entire, sometimes complex, tunes that play out entirely in a mode without having ever resolved or harkened to the corresponding major.

Is the distinction between aeolian and natural minor, for instance, one of context, function and nomenclature? That seems to be the case, and that’s the question I am asking of you two gents.

 

[swink]

If you are tuned down a half step and playing in a song in E then the convention is to call it key of E. For example if the chord progression is I IV V then you call the chords E, A, B (not Eb, Ab, Bb or D#, G#, A#). You can easily verify I am correct by purchasing some quality Jimi Hendrix transcriptions; Hendrix tuned down a half-step but his music is usually transcribed in the key of E (not Eb or D#).



I agree with Vic: Modes are not keys. You can play any mode in any key. You can play any chord in any key.

We name the key based on the tonic. If the tonic is C Major then your song is in the key of C Major. If the tonic is C Minor then your song is in the key of C Minor.

It doesn't matter if our song use 15 exotic modes and 72 complex jazz chords: If the tonic is C Major then our song is in the key of C Major.

Songs take us on a journey. They call it a chord "progression" not a chord "staycation." The key of a song is not determined by where the journey takes you; but rather by where the journey brings you back home to.

The #1 biggest beginner mistake with understanding the key of a song, is to make wrong assumptions like, "There is an E7 chord in measure 43, and E7 contains a G# that is not diatonic to C Major, therefore our song cannot be in the key of C Major, it has to be in a mode. What mode is C D E F G# A B?"



For C Major blues, use C Major key signautre.
For C Minor blues, use C Minor key signature.
(et cetera)

The key of a song is determined by its tonic (not its chord progression!)

I don't understand it completely, but what key is the mode starting on the submediant in the major key?

 

[HolmeBass]

In my experience reading sheet music, both in the "classical" sense and regular pop music, the double-flat and double-sharp thing is mostly for convenience, and a sort of psychological thing: if you are playing a descending line, you tend to use flats (or naturals), whereas if you are ascending, you use sharps (or naturals). It's supposed to give you a sense of movement in the right direction, so to speak.

For instance, if you are playing a walking bass line over blues changes in the key of F, where you have an F7 chord for the first bar, a Bb7 chord for the second, and then back to F7 on bar 3, this is what I would typically see:

Chords: F7 - - - Bb7 - - - F7
Bassline: F G G# A Bb A Ab G F

Your example contained accidentals, but no double sharps nor double flats. It is interesting to know that though, thank you.

 

[Mushroo]

@Mushroo I have learned heaps from you over the years. I appreciate the answer. But, you have given a good definition of a tonic and its relationship to and defining characteristic of a key. I do not see why “modes aren’t keys” as a blanket statement is always true.

Great question!

Here is my answer: Triads have 3 notes and modes have 7 notes.

If a song is "in the key of C Major" then that means our tonic is C Major triad, C E G.

Those 3 notes of the C Major triad do not limit us to any one specific 7-note mode. For example, C Ionian, C Lydian, and C Mixolydian all "fit" perfectly with the triad C E G. There is no contradiction.

There is not a direct one-to-one correlation between modes and keys. In any given key, there are many different modes we can use. (Or, quite possibly, we aren't thinking "modes" at all!)

Another example: If we are playing a "C Major blues" then we are in the key of C Major and the tonic is C Major triad C E G. It would be wrong (in my opinion) to say that "the tonic of a C Blues is C Major scale C D E F G A B" or "the tonic of a C Blues is C Mixolydian mode C D E F G A Bb."

See the distinction?

 

[BBQisgood]

Great question!

Here is my answer: Triads have 3 notes and modes have 7 notes.

If a song is "in the key of C Major" then that means our tonic is C Major triad, C E G.

Those 3 notes of the C Major triad do not limit us to any one specific 7-note mode. For example, C Ionian, C Lydian, and C Mixolydian all "fit" perfectly with the triad C E G. There is no contradiction.

There is not a direct one-to-one correlation between modes and keys. In any given key, there are many different modes we can use. (Or, quite possibly, we aren't thinking "modes" at all!)

Another example: If we are playing a "C Major blues" then we are in the key of C Major and the tonic is C Major triad C E G. It would be wrong (in my opinion) to say that "the tonic is C Major scale C D E F G A B" or "the tonic is C Mixolydian mode C D E F G A Bb."

See the distinction?

Thanks, M!

 

[Papageno]

@Papageno In my mind, it doesn’t matter that modal music sometimes alternates between two chords. It doesn’t change the fact that there are entire, sometimes complex, tunes that play out entirely in a mode without having ever resolved or harkened to the corresponding major.

I agree and I don't think I wrote anything that contradicts this. What characterizes modal music is that it is not built upon the cadences (authentic cadence, etc.) that constitute the backbone of tonal harmony. A modal tune may use one or several chords (2 or more) without ever leaving the mode.

Some tunes are "in between": they are mostly modal, but still end on a V-I cadence.

But the kind of harmonic devices that are used in many tonal tunes (modulation, secondary dominants, modal exchange, etc.) are usually absent from modal tunes.

 

[Papageno]

Is the distinction between aeolian and natural minor, for instance, one of context, function and nomenclature? That seems to be the case, and that’s the question I am asking of you two gents.

That's an interesting question. Actually, there is no really compelling reason for distinguishing between aeolian and natural minor. The nomenclature is not very important. At best, it may help specifying whether the context is modal or tonal.

Aeolian is used as a mode upon which modal music can be built.

Natural minor is never used as the unique basis for minor mode in tonal music. In tonal music, the minor mode is a composite one that use both the minor and major sixth and seventh. For minor, tonal music uses both the harmonic minor scale, the melodic minor scale, and natural minor scale. Note that unlike the natural minor scale, the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales are not modes of the major scale.

 

[mambo4]

I’d have said that modes are different from keys but can serve as a key, and that the distinction depends on the context.

context determines the most useful way to think about most theory "synonyms". When one pitch frequency or pitch collection has multiple names, the name most useful for communication depends on the music and how you want the people you communicate with to approach it.

In professionally notated popular songs that are modal or not 100% diatonic (blues or jazz influenced tune) the key signature reflects the key of the final tonic chord. Whatever key the song sounds like it ends on, that's the key signature they use. Thus they tend to stick to Wooten's 30 keys

For example if the key is G major but always uses a flat 7 and is technically mixolydian, it will use the key sig for the G major scale, and the "mixodlydian-ness" is communicated by accidentals. So someone familiar with notation and basic theory will glance at the key sig and think "It's in G major" But scanning the notation they will see it always has a flat 7 and think "aha it's G mixolydian"

It may seem like extra effort to communicate modal-ness with a accidentals, but I think clearly indicating the overall tonic key center should have priority.

Of course in some music (classical fugues for example) they can just drop in a new key signature as needed. It doesn't typically modern song charts.

 

[HelpImaRock]

Eb.

Absolutely. Unfortunately the tuner probably shows D#, which drives me NUTS!

 

[Papageno]

You don't take HARMONY lessons from a BASS TEACHER.

Can you elaborate?

Though in a band the most expert in harmony is likely to be the piano player, bass players come next, in my experience, way before guitar and horn players or drumers.

Go to the other side (DB), if you want meet some monstrous harmony experts.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Is there a benefit to thinking of, for example, Db major (5 flats) as C# major (7 sharps)?

What if someone at some Blues Jam says,
"Blues in C flat minor?"

(LOL)

Blues In C Flat Minor · Endangered Blood

 

[SteveCS]

Don Kasper has "installed" that question in my brain a few years ago.
What is the key signature of Aminor???

Don's vision of the future is aspirational at best, and in reality is fundamentally flawed. He seems to have overlooked that the fact that, even if G# was included in the key signature for A minor, it remains incomplete as G natural is also diatonic. As are F and F#! Can you imagine it, Naturals, Sharps, Flats AND Doubles in the signatures? What a mess that would be. Using the unmodified signature of the relative major with in-line accidentals is a long-established and well understood convention which represents the most practical solution, IMHO.

 

[SteveCS]

...
tunes that play out entirely in a mode without having ever resolved or harkened to the corresponding major.

Is the distinction between aeolian and natural minor, for instance, one of context, function and nomenclature? That seems to be the case, and that’s the question I am asking...

By highlighting this crucial difference you have just answered your own question. Modal music uses melodic devices to revolve around the 'key' note. Pay close attention to my avoidance of the words tonic, root, I, etc. The modal equivalent to the tonic - the letter name pitch after which the scale is named is called the Final. Not Tonic. Not Root. Not 'key' note - that was just something I used to make a point and can now be forgotten.

 

[SteveCS]

...
In professionally notated popular songs that are modal or not 100% diatonic (blues or jazz influenced tune) the key signature reflects the key of the final tonic chord.
...

...whereas in classical scores the signature (artfully avoiding the word key -) will be that which reflects the notes. D Dorian will have no sharps or flats. Not 1b (assuming it ends with Dm), and a whole bunch of B nat. repeated bar after bar. Again, what a mess that would be.

 

[micguy]

I have played, in the last few years, in literally every key - at least the major and minor ones (darn singers some with odd ranges that cant be stretched). I'm going to call that 24, but I'm not going to argue with Victor if he calls it 30. I'll also assume Victor has much more mastery of most of the modes, but I probably have much more recent experience with the Mistakian mode.

When I have been consultations with keyboardists (why is it always the keyboard folks that know the most theory?) about how to coordinate our parts (so we don't step on each other), we always talk to each other about what notes each other should be playing. We may mention that there's an inversion happening (to explain why I or they are playing a particular note), but i've never had a conversation where we got to discussing what mode we were in.

 

[Wasnex]

i've never had a conversation where we got to discussing what mode we were in.

Might happen if you ever play pure minor patterns over tunes like Impressions or So What. Same changes in both tunes (AFAIK Dorian mode throughout).