Victor Wooten: There are 30 keys

[rogerbmiller]

Technically defensible math. Ridiculous pedagogy.

Now do Jeff Berlin.

 

[CryingBass]

Ran out of popcorn, but this is a good thread!

 

[gzarruk]

And I seem to always play in the wrong one when improvising...

 

[40Hz]

Technically defensible math. Ridiculous pedagogy.

^This.

 

[logdrum]

I am a saxophone player as well - so from the instrument's point of view - you never call F# Gb, Eb D#, C# Db , G# Ab, Bb A# - even though we can read it . Because that's what sax players refers to those physical keys as. So the generalization that brass and winds prefers flats is not totally true. To illustrate - I viscerally think of B major scale as B C# Eb E F# G# Bb B .

Now with clarinet where the second register is actually to the 12th Octave + 5th. Just imagine that your double dot on your bass guitar is now at the 17th fret rather than the 12th.

But I am with @Esteban Garcia -- there are really no keys. Just dissonance or resonance. But in terms of theory what helps is mastering the diminished scales - because there is inherent symmetry to that scale that resolves. TB - you do not hear so much of the dim scale. One great exercise for minor scales is to go up to the ninth but on descending (from the ninth) go back down a diminish scale

 

[DwaynieAD]

I've seen this before. He says some words and they don't mean dookie

 

[Ekulati]

You don't think jazz musicians pay attention to key signatures? Did you miss the part where Vic has played with Chick Corea, Mike Stern, and other very heavy jazz cats? Those are pure reading gigs, and you better expect them to throw some gnarly stuff your way.

Ok yeah, those styles do exist.

 

[chuck3]

Great thread - love reading this discussion. I'm not at a level to contribute much but I basically can follow along. Here's a question - guitarist shows up tuned down a half step and plays in (for him) E. Are you in Eb or D#? Or does it not matter.

 

[BBQisgood]

Please help me with this:


Vic says that modes aren’t keys. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen this video. I came away with this question:

Aeolian mode is not sonically distinct from natural minor, therefore is it not true that at least one mode is a key?

Ionian mode: same question.

There are oodles of folk tunes in Dorian and Myxolidian modes that NEVER harken to a tonic one step down or a fifth down, respectively.

 

[SteveCS]

I would probably argue that they are diatonic to the key though. (I may be wrong, but that is how I think of it).

No need to argue - it's fact. The m6, M6, m7 and M7 are, all 4 of them, diatonic in the minor key.

 

[Papageno]

Vic says that modes aren’t keys. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen this video. I came away with this question:

Aeolian mode is not sonically distinct from natural minor, therefore is it not true that at least one mode is a key?

Your question is about the difference between modal and tonal music.

In short, "tonal" music (in the sense of "common Practice tonal harmony") is music that is constructed upon elaborations of the perfect authentic cadence (V-I in major, or V-i in minor) and few other kinds of cadences such as the half cadence I-V.

By contrast, modal music is built upon the sound color of a mode (most frequently Dorian or Mixolydian, but sometimes Lydian or Aeolian), and has a completely different type of harmony. Feequently it stays on one chord or alternates between 2 chords.

Both tonal and modal music are in a given key, characterized by its key signature. Tonal music very frequently modulates to another key. Modal music seldom does. Because ionian mode has the same notes as the major scale, ionian is not much used as a mode for modal music.

 

[Wasnex]

No need to argue - it's fact. The m6, M6, m7 and M7 are, all 4 of them, diatonic in the minor key.

That was my assumption, but it's been a long time since I was in school.

 

[Les Fret]

Victor is correct. F# major is different from Gb major. The two keys actually sound different as well. Those who took classical piano lessons can easily tell.

Explain how they sound different?

 

[Les Fret]

TL;DR: as a musician and/or composer, don't over-think theory.

Duke Ellington (no slouch in the theory department, that's for sure) said it better than me: "There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. The only yardstick by which the result should be judged is simply that of how it sounds. If it sounds good it's successful; if it doesn't it has failed."

Point being that if you're diving so deeply into the weeds of theory that you're quibbling about whether to count Db and C# as different keys on an equal-temperament instrument in an attempt to make better sounding music, you're doing it wrong. If you're studying theory to understand why music that sounds good sounds good, now you're on the right track, and that theory will serve you well as a writer and a player.

I'm not saying theory is over-rated. It's critical for composers and improvisers to have working knowledge of melody, counterpoint and harmony. But ultimately what you play or write just has to sound good, and you don't have to know any theory to know if you've got that.

I agree. This topic is a good example of over analyzing. So are a lot of Rick Beato and Adam Neely videos. They make good videos but many videos take away the magic of music by over analyzing IMHO.

 

[Papageno]

The very reason why we have enharmonic spelling which bothers so many people is the following:

Tonal (and modal) music is based upon heptatonic scales or modes, with 7 degrees. Each of the 7 letter names A, B, C, D, E, F, G is ascribed uniquely to one degree of the scale or mode. This has the benefit of clearly identifying each degree because each scale degree plays a different role in the harmony. In order to account for the correct intervals with respect to the tonic, each of the notes may need to be raise or lowered by 1 (sometimes 2) semitone. This practice (I prefer not calling it a rule, because it is descriptive, not prescriptive) has the benefit that each scale degree is clearly identified by its letter name, and if the music is transposed to a different key, it will appear exactly similar on the score.

So, for example:
In major, the interval with respect to the tonic are:
1st degree: unison
2nd degree: M2 (major 2nd)
3rd degree: M3
4th degree: P4 ( perfect 4th)
5th degree: P5
6th degree: M6
7th degree: P7.
In F# major, the letter names should be successively F, G, A, B, C, D, E. In order to have the correct intervals with respect to F# (the tonic), the scale degrees should be:
1st degree: F# (not Gb)
2nd degree: G# (not Ab)
3rd degree: A# (not Bb)
4th degree: B (not Cb)
5th degree: C# (not Db)
6th degree: D# (not Eb)
7th degree: E# (not F).

The lesson of this is that we can (should?) think of every note (sound) as having several spellings, and that the appropriate spelling is determined by the harmonic context in which it appears. In some sense, it is very much like in language: there are many sounds that have various different spellings: in spoken language, spelling is irrelevant, but in written language, using the proper spelling instead of phonetic spelling helps a lot the reader with understanding the meaning of the text.

These considerations are important for genres that are mostly tonal and have quite complex harmonic structure, such as classical music and (tonal) jazz, and much less relevant in genres that use primarily a small number of chords in a small number of keys, or at the other extreme in genres that are not based upon heptatonic scale or modes: in atonal or dodecaphonic music, the question of enharmonic spelling is completely different.

 

[swink]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_(music)

I’ve said it before on here and I’ll say it again: I have literally seen someone replaced at the interval during a show. That’s how little the pit world doesn’t mess around. It’s turn up, shut up and put up.

And was that because he didn't know there are thirty keys, or because he was called away for whatever reason and his stand-in came to replace him?

 

[BrotherMister]

And was that because he didn't know there are thirty keys, or because he was called away for whatever reason and his stand-in came to replace him?

Because he wasn’t up to standard. Maybe he was having trouble reading in certain keys? I can’t say what was going on his side but whatever it was, it was obviously not good enough for the MD.

 

[Febs]

Great thread - love reading this discussion. I'm not at a level to contribute much but I basically can follow along. Here's a question - guitarist shows up tuned down a half step and plays in (for him) E. Are you in Eb or D#? Or does it not matter.

Eb.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'll tell you one thing that I've learned many years ago.
I know it's, I'm committing a "sacrilegious" act to pronounce it at this Forum, but...

You don't take HARMONY lessons from a BASS TEACHER.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Its pretty absolute at this point. When notational conventions were still being developed there were different ideas of how to approach key signatures, most notably in relation to minor keys. Some composers and theorists in the 18th century recommended using a mixed accidental key signature for minor keys to represent ‘harmonic minor.’ For instance, a G minor key signature would have Bb, Eb, and F# in the key signature. Obviously that didn’t catch on.

Any ideas about a key signature to "represent" Blues Harmony?